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Thread: 1. More Two Tracks are going to be closed by the Forest Service in Michigan.

  1. #11

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    In other words we can spend our lives writing letters and fighting instead of enjoying our public land, I only have time for one.

    They win either way.

    Those that wish to control the way we live as a supposed free people only need to keep those who wish to be free laced up in boxing gloves. When I asked when is it going to stop it was a rhetorical question, I know it will never stop as evidenced by my linking the same issue from 2009. Obviously our letter campaigns have absolutely zero impact on anything except keeping us in the fight as you put it Bob. I'm personally taking my fight to the ground and going trail riding.
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  2. #12
    Needin' Time to Wheel GLFWDA Member Jarhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creative Fab View Post
    In other words we can spend our lives writing letters and fighting instead of enjoying our public land, I only have time for one.

    They win either way.

    Those that wish to control the way we live as a supposed free people only need to keep those who wish to be free laced up in boxing gloves. When I asked when is it going to stop it was a rhetorical question, I know it will never stop as evidenced by my linking the same issue from 2009. Obviously our letter campaigns have absolutely zero impact on anything except keeping us in the fight as you put it Bob. I'm personally taking my fight to the ground and going trail riding.
    Really?

    If we focus on our losses and failed attempts, one may presume giving up is our only alternative.

    What about the 47.3 miles of ORV Routes that now exist on Drummond Island?

    What about the grant funding for rocks at The Mounds and St. Helen's?

    What about the inclusion of Full-Size 4X4 training that takes place at the Ram Center each year?

    What about the grant funding of an Off-Road Park in South East Michigan?

    What about the fact the Silver Lake Sand Dunes trashed their voucher proposal and are now working with volunteers to find answers to improve our access?

    The list goes on and includes the tenuous relationships we have to foster to sustain our forward efforts.

    While I admit my knowledge is limited, I know of no military, no football team, no basketball team, etc., etc., that wins and or is successful in their every pursuit. It is through trial and loss that we become stronger in our attempts to gain the victory. If the fight is to great, be thankful there are those that do not have enough sense to quit or back-down and are willing to trudge through the bureaucracy in the attempt to not only sustain, but move forward.
    Jarhead (Bob)
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  3. #13

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    I guess I am not being clear enough to convey what I am trying to say, again I only have so much time to sit at typing device. Keep in mind I am the one who got the rocks at St. Helen MSA so you are preaching to choir Bob. Let me ask you a question Bob, what are we fighting for that we haven't already went to battle over? If you were to have followed the link from 09 and the kotaro project (sp) as it relates to this recent issue you may have a better understanding of my apparent poor attempt at asking this question.

    No doubt we can make things like St helen/ Mounds/ Drummond happen. But every attempt we have ever made in dealing with the USFS trail closures has been met with nothing but failure, time to change strategy. I'm sure you are well aware of the old saying, can't keep doing to same thing and expecting a different result. Until we get the courts to make some sort of ruling on this issue we will always have a fight. How many volunteers are we going to burn through fighting? The feds change faces every two years, our faces never change! My face is going to meet face to face with someone on the ground, I'll fight from there is what I am trying to say.
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  4. #14

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    Pat, it was the "something" triangle near Cadillac. A group of us spent a holiday weekend mapping that area, only to find out that the local club that wanted to keep the area open was too busy wheeling out of state to help. To my knowledge, they have never joined GLFWDA.

    While I see both sides of this, I tend to agree with Pat. Touting that we have secured 47 miles of trails that were actually already ours while we lose hundreds of miles of simple 2 tracks is not a winning formula. Personally, I'm disheartened. Recently I have had more than one person tell me that the efforts at the Mounds were a waste of time, not maintained, only for the elite, too much money spent, etc. We spent hours on that project and tried our hardest to make it something unique to our state only to have our own users badmouth it behind our backs.

    The efforts in Oakland County are not a result of GLFWDA, but rather the $$$ signs that Oakland County Parks saw when they analyzed Rick Snyder's efforts to enhance public recreation. To the opposite, every time I mention GLFWDA, it is received in a blank stare sort of way. We have been successful in getting the association's name included, but only in a paltry way. I also believe the DNR is in favor of this effort because when it is opened as an ORV park, it will enhance their argument to close more trails because we have "dedicated" recreation.

    RE Silver Lake, the change of heart was primarily due to the local business's making a stink. Primarily Chad Coker, owner of Appletree automotive. The DNR never came to GLFWDA to ask our opinion but we were at least included in the workshop as a result of Chad Coker's efforts.

    The fullsize users are not on the DNR's radar in any way. My involvement with Oakland County has solidified my opinion that there is no data to support us and there is no government effort to gather our numbers. As far as they are concerned, we are street legal station wagons and don't deserve any special attention. Sadly, I have become calloused to this and don't believe my signature on a petition means anything. Nor is there any movement in the hunters world to get the average Joe-hunter who uses 2 tracks a few times per year to hunt. This guy will go to his usual place that he hunted with his dad and Grandpa only to one day find his trail burmed over. He will be sad, irritated, go find another place to hunt and shrug it off.

    For years, I attended GLFWDA quarterly meetings only to witness the same rhetoric and bickering and zero results. Honestly, the only reason I have renewed my membership for the past 2 years is because it is set up for auto-renew and I haven't changed it. But, if I go back 5 years and ask myself what has been accomplished for my $$$$, I don't see anything.
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  5. #15
    Needin' Time to Wheel GLFWDA Member Jarhead's Avatar
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    My response is simply, wow.

    The lieutenant said we have to take the hill, I am going up the hill.
    Jarhead (Bob)
    Past President GLFWDA
    Former Membership Secretary
    Former Landuse Committee Chair


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  6. #16

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A394k8KtnMM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kUhLMi97dg

    And then there's Pitkin; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joQzpWC-gCo

    You can write letters all day, how has that worked out for us? We can work with those on the ground, how's that worked out for us? Of course the latter has has netted the favorable results thus far. The week after we finished the rocks at the MSA the DNR fell at least 100 trees on one of our menu item trails for both SnoFari and Snoblind. I have actually been meaning to head that direction since, chainsaw in hand and re-open it. It was not closed legally and actually had, upon imediate closure, a sign that read..." trail closure paid for with monies from your ORV restoration dollars. This was not ORV damage, this was an existing two track that my grandparents used since the 30's.

    Until we decide that we are taking this fight to the ground and away from the comfort of our keyboards we will forever be at the bottom of that hill. Lets go fetch us some tickets and take it from there, what do we have to lose?

    And your are right Jim, I think it was called the "M triangle". All I know is that weekend cost me around $400. and I know others had much much more than that invested. For what I ask?

    I have been at this for 18 years, time to for a game changer! Pitkin is how you get **** done!!
    Last edited by Creative Fab; February 17th, 2015 at 04:16 PM.
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  7. #17

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    I also say wow! Thanks for posting the Pitkin video Pat!

    Face to face confrontations seem to be where it's at but people have to have the time and resources, nor courage to do this. Most of us live in lower Michigan and can't be close by like those folks were.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhead View Post
    My response is simply, wow.

    The lieutenant said we have to take the hill, I am going up the hill.
    I don't know how to say this without it seeming insulting, which is not my intent. But, I am old and wise enough to be able to make decisions about a fruitless cause. I'll fight for what's attainable. I won't fight for something that I don't believe can be won with the current method. We need to be smarter than that.

    By the way, has Pinball Alley been opened back up?????
    Or have we seen anything on the Snofari refund?????
    Last edited by WhiteRhino; February 18th, 2015 at 10:38 AM.
    KDSRGON GL#2665 KD8EGK
    Thanks to those that do all the hard work.

  8. #18
    Needin' Time to Wheel GLFWDA Member Jarhead's Avatar
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    Well I have to confess the Land Use Meetings I have been to of late would disprove the theory that change will only come as a result of confrontation on the trail head. Case in point the ability of interested parties being able to effectively utilize and mobilize Off-Road Vehicle Users through the use of Social Media is fascinating to watch. Whether talking with my Representative in Lansing or listening to the DNR, the use of Social Media whether FaceBook, Twitter or something similar if we can figure out how to make our issues go viral and garner support...they will listen.

    A few people complained about the proposed voucher system the DNR intended to put in place this year. Those few generated over 3200 posts and tweets within a few days because people from all over got involved.

    Many of our issues impact far more than ourselves, so how do we get our issues out so that the hunters, the fishermen, the mush-roomers or anyone else that needs access in the forest to speak up and join our cause in a matter of days?
    Jarhead (Bob)
    Past President GLFWDA
    Former Membership Secretary
    Former Landuse Committee Chair


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  9. #19
    AM/Membership Secretary GLFWDA Member Ms.ZJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhead View Post
    Well I have to confess the Land Use Meetings I have been to of late would disprove the theory that change will only come as a result of confrontation on the trail head. Case in point the ability of interested parties being able to effectively utilize and mobilize Off-Road Vehicle Users through the use of Social Media is fascinating to watch. Whether talking with my Representative in Lansing or listening to the DNR, the use of Social Media whether FaceBook, Twitter or something similar if we can figure out how to make our issues go viral and garner support...they will listen.

    A few people complained about the proposed voucher system the DNR intended to put in place this year. Those few generated over 3200 posts and tweets within a few days because people from all over got involved.

    Many of our issues impact far more than ourselves, so how do we get our issues out so that the hunters, the fishermen, the mush-roomers or anyone else that needs access in the forest to speak up and join our cause in a matter of days?
    Get on the net and SHARE! SHARE! SHARE!
    Quite the Conundrum

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Creative Fab View Post
    I guess I am not being clear enough to convey what I am trying to say, again I only have so much time to sit at typing device. Keep in mind I am the one who got the rocks at St. Helen MSA so you are preaching to choir Bob. Let me ask you a question Bob, what are we fighting for that we haven't already went to battle over? If you were to have followed the link from 09 and the kotaro project (sp) as it relates to this recent issue you may have a better understanding of my apparent poor attempt at asking this question.

    No doubt we can make things like St helen/ Mounds/ Drummond happen. But every attempt we have ever made in dealing with the USFS trail closures has been met with nothing but failure, time to change strategy. I'm sure you are well aware of the old saying, can't keep doing to same thing and expecting a different result. Until we get the courts to make some sort of ruling on this issue we will always have a fight. How many volunteers are we going to burn through fighting? The feds change faces every two years, our faces never change! My face is going to meet face to face with someone on the ground, I'll fight from there is what I am trying to say.
    Well it's not a big victory, but I can say we are in the process of getting a small connecting road opened in the Sischo Bayou/Skeels Rd area, west of Fremont. Also a part of Roosevelt Rd. left opened that was going to get closed, this will allow you to drive back near the White river off 168th Ave. I also have a meeting with the Baldwin area FS folks the beginning of April to review some additional roads. I'm meeting with Pat to discuss those after the 17th of this month. Also, the FS folks are willing to review our clubs trail runs to make sure we are on legal roads, and offer route changes if we are not so we don't get tickets.

    I don't disagree that it is an up hill battle...a very large...long hill. The court case I sat in yesterday made that very clear. As you folks are aware it is all politics...Pat helped open my eyes to that. But having worked with a couple of the FS folks I'm not ready to give up yet. I'm sure there will be more NO responses then YES, but after working with them and a good conversation with Pat and Bob, I'm not going to through in the towel yet. Probably do need new ways to approach...not sure if I'm smart enough to figure that out...but I am stubborn enough to try.

    Dave
    Last edited by hemrides; March 13th, 2015 at 07:38 PM. Reason: correct information

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