Ettiquette for questionable wheeling?

[lgottler]

How do you approach this? I have pictures (license plate too) of some guy going through the swamp (wetland) in the back of my house. He got stuck and had to winch through it.

The only reason I was kinda ticked off was because it had a fence put up along with orange snow fence to make sure no builders entered the area. I was told it was a wetland area that nobody could build on. This guy in the Jeep actually crossed both fence lines directly through the swamp, exited out of the area through a new subdivision (crossing empty lots). I took some pictures just in case, and he yelled to me he was on his property.

How would anyone approach this?

Lucas

[oz97tj]

How would anyone approach this?

Lucas

Call the DNR and let them sort it out. If he was legal then no worries. If he was breaking the law, then screw him.

[lgottler]

I posted over on GL4x4 asking who it was. I noticed a sticker on the Jeep when I was looking through my pictures...

[Renegade II]

I posted over on GL4x4 asking who it was. I noticed a sticker on the Jeep when I was looking through my pictures...

That's almost worse for them than calling the DNR :lmao:

[lgottler]

Ended up being a guy from over there "Rob the Plumber"....

Question now is: What happens if a wetland area is on your property (if it was his property), it is legal to do what you wish?

[oz97tj]

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:soap:

I'm betting it's not this guys property or you would have likely seen the jeep and or him before. If so, then he shouldn't have been there anyway, and he knew what he was doing wasn't right because he lied.

If you really want to be a nice guy, find out who's property it is. If it isn't his, then screw him and call the DNR.

[T-way]

I don't know what the law says about driving through a wetland on your own property, but I do know that you can't just legally do whatever you want with it (i.e. draining it, filling it in, etc).

Like was said before, call the DNR and give them them copies of the pictures. The local CO will be more than happy to track this guy down. They will then do the work to determine if he is the landowner, and whether or not what he did is legal.

If it's not his property - screw him! He deserves a ticket. It might keep him from driving through YOUR property next time!!!

Kick some butt Lucas!!!

[T-way]

Also - if it WAS his property, then why did he drive THROUGH the fences??

[WhiteRhino]

Maybe not jump to conclusions is a good idea. I'd be pissed as hell if the authorities came knocking on my door if I was doing something legal and somebody jumped the gun.

Until you know who owns the property and what the circumstances are, jumping the gun only makes an enemy where it isn't necessary.

Is it wetlands or just your opinion? A wet area does not define wetlands.
Is it the owner?
Is it a person there with owner's permission?

[oz97tj]

Maybe not jump to conclusions is a good idea. I'd be pissed as hell if the authorities came knocking on my door if I was doing something legal and somebody jumped the gun.

Until you know who owns the property and what the circumstances are, jumping the gun only makes an enemy where it isn't necessary.

Is it wetlands or just your opinion? A wet area does not define wetlands.
Is it the owner?
Is it a person there with owner's permission?

If it's wetlands it doesn't really matter if it's the owner or not. This is where a discussion with a DNR officer would go a long way. It's not like the CO is going to go ripping into the guys driveway with lights and sirens blaring if something calls. However, a call to them could answer all the questions and put this to rest. The DNR would answer the question about IF it's a wetland and then act accordingly.

I'm sorry if you would be pissed, but if you broke the law then tough ****! If you didn't break the law, then the DNR wouldn't even come to your door to talk to you.

[lgottler]

Maybe not jump to conclusions is a good idea. I'd be pissed as hell if the authorities came knocking on my door if I was doing something legal and somebody jumped the gun.

Until you know who owns the property and what the circumstances are, jumping the gun only makes an enemy where it isn't necessary.

Is it wetlands or just your opinion? A wet area does not define wetlands.
Is it the owner?
Is it a person there with owner's permission?

Thats what I've been trying to find out. It appears to be his neighbors property, he was given permission to be on the property. The only question now is about that particular area being protected or not.

As far as wetlands, its not my opinion, but the opinion of 3 neighbors and the Realtor telling me nobody can build there because it is a protected area. Then the guys putting up a wire fence around the area and sitting in a chair whenever the construction guys start digging leads me to believe this. I had a neighbor (New Baltimore PD) tell me a guy a few houses down on Jefferson had been fighting the building, etc....

Cliff Notes: Have area by your house that many people have told you is off-limits/protected area. You see some guy in a Jeep stuck in the middle of it. Walk out, take pictures, watch what he does from your yard. Go online and ask advice.

Lucas

[WhiteRhino]

If it's wetlands it doesn't really matter if it's the owner or not. This is where a discussion with a DNR officer would go a long way. It's not like the CO is going to go ripping into the guys driveway with lights and sirens blaring if something calls. However, a call to them could answer all the questions and put this to rest. The DNR would answer the question about IF it's a wetland and then act accordingly.

I'm sorry if you would be pissed, but if you broke the law then tough ****! If you didn't break the law, then the DNR wouldn't even come to your door to talk to you.

All too often people report things that are utter BS and the innocent guy ends up having to unnecessarily defend himself. I didn't say that the DNR would come charging in. That's really not the point. Even if they politely knock on the door and say "we want to ask you a few questions", it's unsettling and creates undo stress. I don't think you would say they wouldn't show up if you did nothing wrong.

I had someone call on my neighbor a few years back but actually had my name. The next thing I know, I've got the township inspector coming to my home asking questions. It put me on the defensive even though I'd done nothing wrong. Personally, I don't want anyone on my property asking questions about anything till they have something to accuse me of. Then they can call my lawyer.:flipoff:


Thats what I've been trying to find out. It appears to be his neighbors property, he was given permission to be on the property. The only question now is about that particular area being protected or not.

As far as wetlands, its not my opinion, but the opinion of 3 neighbors and the Realtor telling me nobody can build there because it is a protected area. Then the guys putting up a wire fence around the area and sitting in a chair whenever the construction guys start digging leads me to believe this. I had a neighbor (New Baltimore PD) tell me a guy a few houses down on Jefferson had been fighting the building, etc....

Cliff Notes: Have area by your house that many people have told you is off-limits/protected area. You see some guy in a Jeep stuck in the middle of it. Walk out, take pictures, watch what he does from your yard. Go online and ask advice.

Lucas

Lucas,
You're reading me wrong. I'm on board with you. You're not jumping to conclusions. Others are telling you that right off the bat you should call the DNR and report wrong doing. I don't agree.

[oz97tj]

All too often people report things that are utter BS and the innocent guy ends up having to unnecessarily defend himself.


No disrespect, but I disagree %100! I'm pretty sure I know a guy or two that has recieved the call regarding potential illegal activity. "Those guys" go and talk to the caller and when they find out it isn't illegal, they tell the person so and then move on. There is no need to contact Joe Citizen if nothing illegal took place and therefore they don't even need to know somebody called on them. Further, generally the officers wouldn't contact the guy for that very reason. The last thing any cop wants to do is cause a neighbor fight that requires us to have to come back. There is enough going on that once the officer realizes there is no need for LE, they try to get out because there is always another call waiting.

What I would tell Lucas, or anyone for that matter is to call the DNR and ask about the wetland. This is the first option so it will rule out any of the opinions of the neighbors and the realtors. Lucas doesn't even have to give the officer the guys name or pictures. All he has to say is he seen somebody going through there. The CO will answer the question as to the illegal wheeling. If it was illegal and Lucas still wants to persue it, then he can give the officer the photos and the guys name. Or Lucas can tell the officer thanks and leave it at that.

[WhiteRhino]

IMO, it's obviously a difference of opinion based on which side of the door you are on. I don't want somebody calling the authorities on me before they know what the h$#l they are talking about.

Oh, and the % symbol goes after the number.:bootyshake:

[Renegade II]

This isn't the making of an accusation against someone, this is rock solid proof in pictures that a specific person was in this area with a specific, positively identified vehicle. The question at hand; No matter who owns it, is the area a certified wetland?

Anyone here a DNRE Conservation Officer? Anyone here a DNRE biologist? Anyone here have legal authority, training and background to investigate a matter like this to see if crminal charges would be justified? Anyone?

[lgottler]

With this case, I don't plan on going any further. I have some pictures in case something ever comes of it, but I'm not going to do anything about it. I'm too busy to get involved further.

Generally, I suppose one would do the research and get the absolute facts about a particular area from the people that know. Only problem I see would be the fact you draw attention to that area the instant you ask about it. If the purpose is to inform the parties involved, to educate them not attack them, drawing attention might not be the best.

[Jarhead]

If it's wetlands it doesn't really matter if it's the owner or not. This is where a discussion with a DNR officer would go a long way. It's not like the CO is going to go ripping into the guys driveway with lights and sirens blaring if something calls. However, a call to them could answer all the questions and put this to rest. The DNR would answer the question about IF it's a wetland and then act accordingly.

I'm sorry if you would be pissed, but if you broke the law then tough ****! If you didn't break the law, then the DNR wouldn't even come to your door to talk to you.

I agree with Jim here. There are far to many unanswered questions.

While JR's point of ignorance of the law is no excuse, I would opt to have someone attempt to educate me prior to issuing a verdict.

From: http://www.deq.state.mi.us/documents/deq-ead-wetland3.pdf

Are all Wetlands covered by the law?
No. Wetlands regulated under the state statute (Part 303, 1994 PA 451 Natural Resources and Environmental Protection Act), are wetlands of any size that are “contiguous” to another waterbody, or that are greater than five acres in size in counties with a population of more than 100,000. The state wetland protection law also allows the DEQ to identify wetlands with special significance, such as those that support very rare plants or animals, and regulate certain activities in those wetlands. The property owner would receive a notice of this special designation.

Part 303, 1994 PA 451 Natural Resources and Environmental Protection Act
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(gvip35454d24b42405umyxfw))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-451-1994-iii-1-inland-waters-303

Natural Resources and Environmental Protection Act
http://www.state.mi.us/orr/emi/admincode.asp?AdminCode=Single&Admin_Num=28100921&Dpt=EQ&RngHigh

Ignoring the wetlands issue, if the perpetrator crossed my fence line we now have a separate issue of which I can choose to involve, myself or not as it pertains to trespassing. If I don't own the property in question wherein both fence lines were crossed, I still have the choice of notifying the property owner or simply be thankful it wasn't my property.

I attempt to live the philosophy of treating others as I wish to be treated (no I don't get it right every time).

[oz97tj]

A phone call could answer if it was in fact illegal or not. This would pretty much put this discussion to rest. Also, to clarify, a call to the DNR doesn't always mean a call to report somebody.

As for him being guilty, it seems to me when he yelled to Lucas that it was his property he was covering his tracks because he knew he wasn't supposed to be there. If he truly thought he did nothing wrong, I doubt he would have yelled that. It would have been more along the lines of, "Sorry for making all the noise."

And Jim, :flipoff:% Does that work the same way? :lmao:

[bmpxj]

Just as an FYI...

Here in OH the Army Corps of Engineers handles wetlands delineation along with the EPA. They also investigate complaints and enforce any mitigation/remediation actions resulting from a valid complaint investigation.

If you are looking for someone to tell you for sure if it is a wetland you should check with your local NRCS office and have a soil conservationist look into it.

And Jim, you said:

"I had someone call on my neighbor a few years back but actually had my name. The next thing I know, I've got the township inspector coming to my home asking questions. It put me on the defensive even though I'd done nothing wrong. Personally, I don't want anyone on my property asking questions about anything till they have something to accuse me of. Then they can call my lawyer."

Sometimes that is the only way you can find out anything when someone calls in a concern/complaint. One tries to gather as much information on a given situation as they can, but sometimes a cold call to the property in question is the only thing you can do. Just speaking from experience.:thumb:

[WhiteRhino]

I think Bob said it very well. It's something I've preached but didn't say it right this way. I promote that we all live by the Golden Rule. If you were the guy in the field, doing nothing wrong, knowing it's not wetlands (hypothetical), have the owners position, etc, would you really want somebody calling the authorities "just cuz"? I know I wouldn't.

There's a bit of buttinski that I think we should all leave alone.

[Jarhead]

It bears repeating, "Are all Wetlands covered by the law?
No. Wetlands regulated under the state statute (Part 303, 1994 PA 451 Natural Resources and Environmental Protection Act), are wetlands of any size that are “contiguous” to another waterbody, or that are greater than five acres in size in counties with a population of more than 100,000."

Why would we not want to take the time to educate?

If you spent any time talking to a Conservation Officer, you may find they have greater difficulty in patrolling/controlling the local who has done what they have for years and may or may not knowingly be violating the law. You will have a percentage in every crowd that won't care one way or another, but I would like to keep the higher ground while researching an issue in lieu of jumping to conclusions simply because the issue violates what I believe would be proper.

[kb8ymf]

Now that we've gotten the 'facts' out of the way, how about the ethical or image problem that that kind of activity portrays?
If his identify is indeed known I would suggest a personal e-mail or PM to him explaining some of the downside to recreating in a urban area.
Image is some of our biggest problems and recreating in a subdivision vacant lot can certainly bring with it concern from neighbors. Even neighbors who have a bit of leniency towards this kind of actions. Most neighbors will automatically assume what he is/was doing is illegal.
While some activity like this could be deemed acceptable in some northern locations, doing it in a highly populated area in Macomb only brings negative connotations with it.
I wouldn't have expected he had a power washer at hand and cleaned off his vehicle before he entered a public highway? Neighbors who see this get pretty upset as this now gets into a safety aspect of dumping mud on a highway.
Just another viewpoint
jim-kb8ymf