PDA

View Full Version : Why no pinion brakes?



keithshotrodshop
December 17th, 2005, 04:44 PM
O.K. I've wondered this for awhile. I've noticed on the GL runs the tech sheet does not allow pinion brakes. What is the reason for this? For guys who like to run rockwells this would almost completely alienate them. Sure they can spend 1,500 per axle for outboard brakes, but who's got that kinda cash? I actually sold a set of rockwells because of this. I figured if greatlakes won't allow pinion brakes, the axles would be useless under any rig of mine because I like going on GL events.

Creative Fab
December 17th, 2005, 06:15 PM
GL does not allow pinion brakes as a primary braking system unless the vehicle came from the factory with, and are DOT approved with such a braking system. To which no vehicle available to the general public has ever been available with such a braking system.

Military vehicles do not need to be DOT approved.

To satisfy our insurance policy all GL sanctioned events need to comply with the Department Of Transportation regulations.

WhiteRhino
December 18th, 2005, 02:36 PM
Here is the technical side of this:
A pinion brake locks up the pinion gear only. Not the axles. With an open dif, that means that if one tire were to have low traction, the other tire would rotate freely. The same can happen with a locker since many lockers allow the non traction side to rotate FASTER than the slower tire. Also, consider a broken dif means no braking.

I think this was a spinoff from United.

keithshotrodshop
December 18th, 2005, 11:17 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ironman &#064; Dec 17 2005, 05&#58;15 PM) 7138</div>

To satisfy our insurance policy all GL sanctioned events need to comply with the Department Of Transportation regulations.
[/b]
O.K, comon that&#39;s a copout. I&#39;d dare say over half the vehicles at Gitchee Gumme don&#39;t meet all DOT requirements.

So I guess let me ask this, would you guys honestly turn away a nicely built vehicle running rockwells with pinion brakes from an event...Or would we look the other way?

kb8ymf
December 20th, 2005, 11:51 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(keithshotrodshop &#064; Dec 18 2005, 10&#58;17 PM) 7154</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ironman &#064; Dec 17 2005, 05&#58;15 PM) 7138

To satisfy our insurance policy all GL sanctioned events need to comply with the Department Of Transportation regulations.
[/b]
O.K, comon that&#39;s a copout. I&#39;d dare say over half the vehicles at Gitchee Gumme don&#39;t meet all DOT requirements.

So I guess let me ask this, would you guys honestly turn away a nicely built vehicle running rockwells with pinion brakes from an event...Or would we look the other way?
[/b][/quote]

Keith,
The G.L. guidelines were actually &#39;borrowed&#39; from about 10 other Association&#39;s requirements across the U.S., Middle-Atlantic, Southwest, Colorado, and others that I&#39;ve attended over the last 20+ years. I don&#39;t think I&#39;ve ever seen pinion brakes, as a primary system. Emergency brake, yes. Thiese are not to be confused with outboard brakes like a H&#33;. If you&#39;ve ever stomped on those brakes, the axle windup feels like a rubberband. The windup through a driveshaft and the backlash of a ring and pinion would be horrendous.
Pat&#39;s comment on DOT is G.L. just exercising reasonable caution. If someone was hurt on an event sponsored by us, the plantiff could say that G.L. allowed the braking system and that caused the injury. As was pointed out, if the system does meet DOT cert it would be allowed. As far as I know, there are no primary braking system using the drivesahft pinion as the primary source. This is due the the FMVSS requirement of a braking device be located at all 4 wheels of a vehicle.
On the GG comment......1/2 not meeting DOT....You&#39;re a bit high. maybe 6 or 7 might not have. Would I like every one to be compliant, you bet&#33; It makes for a safer and enjoyable ride for all. As it stands, it&#39;s sometime hard to get every one to fill their gas take before each run&#33;
j-kb8ymf

MuddyPaws
December 22nd, 2005, 09:40 PM
As it stands, it&#39;s sometime hard to get every one to fill their gas take before each run&#33; [/b]

That was low and uncalled for. You keep harping on that and we can open up some other things that are better left closed. Get over it.

WhiteRhino
December 23rd, 2005, 09:28 AM
Jim&#39;s right though. I don&#39;t know how many times I have been lined up in a group ready to pull out only to have someone say "oh, I gotta get gas". Then you have 10 people who are standing around waiting for the 1 person who wasn&#39;t prepared&#33;

And a little dig never hurt anyone :P :P

95geo
December 23rd, 2005, 12:07 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MuddyPaws &#064; Dec 22 2005, 08&#58;40 PM) 7207</div>


As it stands, it&#39;s sometime hard to get every one to fill their gas take before each run&#33; [/b]

That was low and uncalled for. You keep harping on that and we can open up some other things that are better left closed. Get over it.
[/b]


i think your contradicting yourself a little bit here, remember this????? http://www.glfwda.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=795&hl=

maybe you should get over it?

kb8ymf
December 23rd, 2005, 02:19 PM
First off Tim, It wasn&#39;t a malicious slam on Keith what so ever. It was a friendly little jab and a little humility never hurt anyone anyways. Do you actually think Keith was the only one that choose not to start with a full tank of gas or enough food and water for two days in the bush? NOT&#33; Greatest example of this is the &#39;3 days and 2 nights in the Canadian bush&#39; and you&#39;ll understand why you need to be prepared. Ask anyone who was there what they take with them on a trail ride now. Even though this was advertised to be a stock run meant to only last a few hours, just like Gilligan and his &#39;3 hour tour&#39; You&#39;ll now find them following the boy scout motto: Be Prepared
Catch me doing something I shouldn&#39;t and I&#39;ll take the criticism if I deserve it.

From a broader perspective, Wheeling as we do it in Canada requires 3 basic rules.
1. Be prepared. This includes food, fuel, first aid kit, tools, spare parts, spare clothes and a vehicle not in need of repair. One great way to wreck a trail ride for a group of friends is to head out without checking your vehicle over for little common sense routine maintenance items, i.e.: clicking U-joints, leaky radiator, loose tie rods just to name a few.
2. Communication. The does NOT include CB&#39;s, cell phones or FRS&#39;s. I&#39;m talking amout Amatuer radio or Ham radio as it&#39;s called. It&#39;s the only reliable communication that at a minimum, the trail leaders in each goup should have.
3. Travel plan that been communicated to the group in a fashion that would enable a rescue group to be dispatched in the event your group doesn not return.

An examination of rides gone wrong and you&#39;ll find the group ignored one or more of the basic rules. As a trail leader you have a responsibility to make sure that everyone you take out does indeed come back. I&#39;m not just talking about G.L. sanctioned rides. When the trail ride group leaves you should feel confident that everyone is as prepared for as good of a time as they can. That&#39;s what&#39; makes us want to come back.

jim - kb8ymf

lgottler
December 23rd, 2005, 03:10 PM
Let me get his straight....the only form of braking on vehicles that used Rockwell axles were pinion brakes??? I figured there would be some monster drums or something to stop xx ton vehicle...

Lucas

95geo
December 23rd, 2005, 04:04 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lgottler &#064; Dec 23 2005, 02&#58;10 PM) 7216</div>

Let me get his straight....the only form of braking on vehicles that used Rockwell axles were pinion brakes??? I figured there would be some monster drums or something to stop xx ton vehicle...

Lucas
[/b]

you have it right, big massive drums

hunter2005
December 23rd, 2005, 04:45 PM
:stole-it: will i&#39;m thinking on doing a parking brake on my toyota that gose off the back of the t-case... now would something like that be allowed... it says it will hold a toyota truck on a 45 degree angle in netrul... so if i do this can my truck be ran at a outin............................................. ...... :thumb:

lgottler
December 23rd, 2005, 08:24 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hunter2005 &#064; Dec 23 2005, 12&#58;45 PM) 7224</div>

:stole-it: will i&#39;m thinking on doing a parking brake on my toyota that gose off the back of the t-case... now would something like that be allowed... it says it will hold a toyota truck on a 45 degree angle in netrul... so if i do this can my truck be ran at a outin............................................. ...... :thumb:
[/b]

Well, thats an emergency brake, so it should be fine&#33; That is my second choice after line lock....but I am leaning toward something mechanical like that being that the last wheeling trip I was on I tore off my rear brake line which left no brakes&#33;

Lucas

keithshotrodshop
December 25th, 2005, 06:32 PM
Yeah, they got big drums, Too big to fit inside of most wheels though, plus the weight, That&#39;s why they get ditched. As for me almost running out of gas on the last day of Gitchee Gumme, theres a little more to it than "being prepared". We were going out on a "3-4" hour scouting run (lucas-I gotta stop listening to him&#33;) and gas was over 7 dollars a gallon American, I didn&#39;t have enough dough to fill the tank completly on my rig and get home&#33; But I did have a ton of fun on that trip, and would do it again in a heartbeat-just with maybe a gallon or two more&#33;

Roadhouse
December 25th, 2005, 07:29 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kb8ymf &#064; Dec 23 2005, 01&#58;19 PM) 7215</div>

First off Tim, It wasn&#39;t a malicious slam on Keith what so ever. It was a friendly little jab and a little humility never hurt anyone anyways.
[/b]



Ya look at how bad everyone makes fun of me on the internet. :bigemo_harabe_net-163:

keithshotrodshop
December 25th, 2005, 11:31 PM
If anyone thinks my feelings are hurt they are mistaken - lighten up guys&#33;

MuddyPaws
December 29th, 2005, 08:20 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(95geo &#064; Dec 23 2005, 11&#58;07 AM) 7214</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MuddyPaws &#064; Dec 22 2005, 08&#58;40 PM) 7207


As it stands, it&#39;s sometime hard to get every one to fill their gas take before each run&#33; [/b]

That was low and uncalled for. You keep harping on that and we can open up some other things that are better left closed. Get over it.
[/b]


i think your contradicting yourself a little bit here, remember this????? http://www.glfwda.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=795&hl=

maybe you should get over it?
[/b][/quote]

Looked at the post again and don&#39;t see your point. I made a post right after the event, not months and months later. You still think that post was only about you? You need to re-read it. Way to poke your nose in it though.