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Icemanii
July 27th, 2009, 08:42 AM
Wonder how the environment at Tellico looks since wheeling was halted there? Pics taken by a member from Pirate this past weekend (Yellowxj).

http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af92/yellowxj_photos/tellicoandproperty020.jpg
http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af92/yellowxj_photos/tellicoandproperty022.jpg
http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af92/yellowxj_photos/tellicoandproperty017.jpg

WhiteRhino
July 27th, 2009, 08:01 PM
Well yeah, but that's OK because of the almighty $$$$$$.

Renegade II
July 27th, 2009, 10:30 PM
The only legal wheeling vehicle endorsed by our government........








http://www.oregontractortrader.com/pics/skidder/2252/2252-0.jpg

JohnnyJ
July 28th, 2009, 12:01 AM
ransawoakenargsmerfigargle!!!

:ironman:

Greenway
July 28th, 2009, 12:37 AM
The only legal wheeling vehicle endorsed by our government........



http://www.oregontractortrader.com/pics/skidder/2252/2252-0.jpg

Yes, but it has tire chains so the tires don't spin and create an erosive condition.

Icemanii
July 28th, 2009, 08:43 AM
Wonder where all the Greenies are now? That bottom picture shows a lot more runoff then all of combined would ever put into the water.

Like stated though, for the government, it is the $$ generated by the logging more than the environmental issues raised by either side.

shaker
July 28th, 2009, 10:33 AM
How does complaining about logging operations help our cause?

As I see it wood is a renewable resource that requires logging to take advantage of. And responsible logging is not going to stop the planet from turning. The way I see it, we should work with or at least try to work with the logging industry against a common enemy.

Complaining and making a big stink about such things does us no good. Yet gives traction to the bone heads left extremist greenies. We give them something to point to. We want to drive in the woods and cause some erosion, but turn and complain about someone else causing some erosion. Just shooting ourselves in the foot.

My $.02

Creative Fab
July 28th, 2009, 08:15 PM
I think the point being made was that it is apparently ok for our government to cause the erosion, 10 fold, but it is not ok for us. Remember, the federal government is the one behind the logging operation. Where is Trout Unilimited now?

T-way
July 28th, 2009, 09:36 PM
I've always wanted to go to Tellico. Guess I'll buy a used log skidder and go hit some trails!!!!!

:woot:

Icemanii
July 28th, 2009, 09:55 PM
How does complaining about logging operations help our cause?

As I see it wood is a renewable resource that requires logging to take advantage of. And responsible logging is not going to stop the planet from turning. The way I see it, we should work with or at least try to work with the logging industry against a common enemy.

Complaining and making a big stink about such things does us no good. Yet gives traction to the bone heads left extremist greenies. We give them something to point to. We want to drive in the woods and cause some erosion, but turn and complain about someone else causing some erosion. Just shooting ourselves in the foot.

My $.02


I think the point being made was that it is apparently ok for our government to cause the erosion, 10 fold, but it is not ok for us. Remember, the federal government is the one behind the logging operation. Where is Trout Unilimited now?

Correct. Tellico was closed to wheeling due to erosion and water quality. As the photos show, the logging operation that was started after the wheelers were kicked out is causing more damage in both those regards.

The thread was not started to point a finger at the logging operation, but rather at the fact that the very reasion for the closure of Tellico to our use is continuing now, in an even bigger way. My point was to show how the FS is NOT following up on events unfolding in the area at this time.

As you pointed out Shaker, responsible logging is a fact of life. Extreme runoff and fluids spilled randomly are not a part of that responsible way of working.

To me, when we stop caring and monitoring the land use by all, we have buried our heads in the sands. I don't want to wait until they are trying to close SL or St. Helen's to fight, I'd rather set the tone of our involvement wherever they try to take land use away from us, or, as in this case, don't play on a level field.

That is my .02, for what it is worth.

shaker
July 28th, 2009, 10:05 PM
I guess I just seen this thread and put myself in a loggers shoes.

If I was involved in logging and came across this I wouldn't see fullsize offroaders very friendly towards my goals, so why be friendly with theirs?

It is not the logging industry removing our rights, so no sense in throwing mud their direction.

Maybe I just have an odd point of view. :confused:

Greenway
July 28th, 2009, 10:18 PM
I guess I just seen this thread and put myself in a loggers shoes.

If I was involved in logging and came across this I wouldn't see fullsize offroaders very friendly towards my goals, so why be friendly with theirs?

It is not the logging industry removing our rights, so no sense in throwing mud their direction.

Maybe I just have an odd point of view. :confused:

No, I see it the same way.

We shouldn't look at it as loggers creating erosion so they shouldn't be there, we should view it as forests are meant to be used, use causes erosion, therefor some erosion is an allowable consequence of normal use.

WhiteRhino
July 29th, 2009, 06:45 AM
Although noble to think that the loggers would join with us, I think historically they have shown they don't want us there. My observations both here and in Canada is that they feel they are the king of the woods and we are a nusiance and liability.

Regarding Tellico specifically, I have to believe that the logging there was in process, at least at the permit level during the time that the ORV litigations were under way. You don't just drive into the woods 3 months after the lawsuit and start cutting trees. Therefore, the FS had to know that they were coming and it's no secret what the skidders do. I'm not aware of any loggers saying to the FS "hey, we're going to make ruts anyway so let them stay".

I have felt for years that the use of our national and state land is a direct correlation to the dollars spent by each industry. To me, this is just another example of it.

shaker
July 29th, 2009, 01:04 PM
Although noble to think that the loggers would join with us, I think historically they have shown they don't want us there. My observations both here and in Canada is that they feel they are the king of the woods and we are a nusiance and liability.

Regarding Tellico specifically, I have to believe that the logging there was in process, at least at the permit level during the time that the ORV litigations were under way. You don't just drive into the woods 3 months after the lawsuit and start cutting trees. Therefore, the FS had to know that they were coming and it's no secret what the skidders do. I'm not aware of any loggers saying to the FS "hey, we're going to make ruts anyway so let them stay".

I have felt for years that the use of our national and state land is a direct correlation to the dollars spent by each industry. To me, this is just another example of it.


They say how bad we are, we say how bad they are. A never ending cycle of hate towards eachother, that I feel is unnecessary. And the only one winning is the greenies who only have to sit back and agree with what we say to eachother.

Two wrongs don't make a right it just leads to three and four and five and so on with the wrongs. Some one needs to break the cycle sooner or later.

Icemanii
July 29th, 2009, 03:22 PM
They say how bad we are, we say how bad they are. A never ending cycle of hate towards eachother, that I feel is unnecessary. And the only one winning is the greenies who only have to sit back and agree with what we say to eachother.

Two wrongs don't make a right it just leads to three and four and five and so on with the wrongs. Some one needs to break the cycle sooner or later.

Again, I feel that you are missing the point that the concern is not with the logging company but with the Forest Service for allowing the double standards. The photos are to show that the very reasons they shut down wheeling in the area are now happening due to another source, with the blessing of the FS.
To sit back and say let's just ignore that this is happening is the wrong approach in my opinion. We need to be involved and we need to call attention to the fact that the FS is NOT playing by their own rules, but allowing $$ to dictate who gets to use the public lands.
Just because this in not happening within our own little comfort zone of Mid Michigan wheeling doesn't mean we should let it go. We need to constantly and consistently monitor and protest any areas closed to wheeling.

shaker
July 29th, 2009, 03:50 PM
I agree Tellico should not be closed to wheeling. I just don't know how crying about logging is going to change that.

All I see is by crying about logging you give credit to the accusation that erosion is so terrible.

As a greenie, I would just point to this thread laugh and say "see they know erosion is bad, and they complain about logging because of it, but they want to be allowed to do it."

Nothing to gain here, plenty to lose. Same old same old in the land of wheeling.:ahhh:

Bishop
July 29th, 2009, 06:12 PM
I agree Tellico should not be closed to wheeling. I just don't know how crying about logging is going to change that.

All I see is by crying about logging you give credit to the accusation that erosion is so terrible.

As a greenie, I would just point to this thread laugh and say "see they know erosion is bad, and they complain about logging because of it, but they want to be allowed to do it."

Nothing to gain here, plenty to lose. Same old same old in the land of wheeling.:ahhh:

i dont think that anyone is crying about the logging. I myself dont have any problems with logging, its a huge part of our world and its not going anywhare.

the problem comes in when the FS says, hey, you offroaders are tearing this place up and hurting the water quality so you cant come here anymore.

then all the sudden they let in other activities that are dooing more damage than we were.

look at it like this. lets say the mounds was only open to dirt bikes and quads.
well one day they say the dirt bikes are making too many ruts and have too many 2 strokes leaving too much oil every where. so they plose the park to dirt bikes and quads.
then 3 months down the road the mounds gets re opened to full size rigs but still no dirt bikes. just because the full size crew is willing to pay more to get in to the park. while still causing just as much damage if not more.


it doesn't matter who it is or how much damage they are or are not doing.
if they closed the park the shouldn't allow it to be logged even if they didn't do a lick of harm.

timbercruiser
July 29th, 2009, 06:17 PM
Logging on FS land is a LLLOOOONNGG process. That sale was probably set up 2-3 years ago and has had to be approved by many "ologists" including ecologists and hydrologists. The erosion that may be caused by logging has to be checked and controlled.

WhiteRhino
July 30th, 2009, 01:00 AM
So what are you saying Dave? That the FS knew 2-3 years ago that they would be allowing an erosive industry into that area while they were shutting it down to the ORV users? From reading your response I don't understand whether you agree or disagree with this topic.

timbercruiser
July 30th, 2009, 03:19 PM
I'm saying that the FS (like all federal agecies) has a lot of paperwork/regulations and does things "by the book" which means that the contract for the logging contains stiff penalties for the loggers if they don't do it right. There is also a "performance" bond held by the FS to cover any cost/penalties incurred by the loggers (oil spills, cutting wrong trees etc...) It may look awful, but any erosion is SUPPOSED to be minimal (depends on the inspector).

There are a lot of FS employees who think the forest should be closed to everyone and those are the people who are locking us out.

The National Forest system is to provide many different uses for citizens (The four W's:wood, water, wildlife, wecreation). So logging AND OHV use should be happening. Both groups are targets of the evironazis. (I'm in both!)

The closure is wrong and I've let my national reps know about it

WhiteRhino
July 30th, 2009, 06:19 PM
Dave,
With your experience, does the logging industry frown on us? In other words, since these permits took 2-3 years to procure, is there a possibility that the loggers were pushing to get the OHV users out of the way for the logging process?

shaker
July 30th, 2009, 07:49 PM
Dave,
With your experience, does the logging industry frown on us? In other words, since these permits took 2-3 years to procure, is there a possibility that the loggers were pushing to get the OHV users out of the way for the logging process?

Yeah, I bet the logging industry was using trout unlimited like a puppet to get rid of the OHV's and the erosion they cause to make room for the logging erosion.


Why didn't I think of that. :idea:

bhunt
July 31st, 2009, 09:56 AM
Erosion was just a tool or excuse used to get us out of the way. Lumber companies make their money by getting in and out quick and don't want to be bothered with having to watch out for Joe Public. OHV are a liability to them, traffic that just gets in their way or the way of a falling tree. I haven't been there personally but I'm sure there are some big bucks coming out of those woods. I may be wrong but it is probably cheaper for them lobby against us then it is to work around us. Imagine the lawsuit if a skidder ran over a Jeeper. Wouldn't suprise me if magically all our "erosive damage" is no longer an issue and it reopens to the public as soon as the logging is finished.

shaker
July 31st, 2009, 11:34 AM
Erosion was just a tool or excuse used to get us out of the way. Lumber companies make their money by getting in and out quick and don't want to be bothered with having to watch out for Joe Public. OHV are a liability to them, traffic that just gets in their way or the way of a falling tree. I haven't been there personally but I'm sure there are some big bucks coming out of those woods. I may be wrong but it is probably cheaper for them lobby against us then it is to work around us. Imagine the lawsuit if a skidder ran over a Jeeper. Wouldn't suprise me if magically all our "erosive damage" is no longer an issue and it reopens to the public as soon as the logging is finished.

I hope you are right.

timbercruiser
July 31st, 2009, 01:58 PM
The loggers I have worked with over the years are usually just like the rest of us (which means they play like we do and don't have any love for tree huggers). Of course, they have had some run-ins with ignorant people. I should note that when I deal with/inspect loggers, it is on private land, so NO ONE should be there doing anything. When I work on public land, I just do the cruising/marking/setup of the timber sale and the agency foresters do the inspections.

jeepfreak81
July 31st, 2009, 03:11 PM
I am half tempted to mail those to Trout Unlimited and say "Now see what you have done"

Mr-S
July 31st, 2009, 05:44 PM
Besides, the loggers will not work with us. Logging is the main reason a great trail was closed up here. The logging company had to grade the road after the spring melt because 4x4's were rutting the road in the spring. Then the loggers couldn't get their trucks back there.

The loggers are not, and will not be, on our side.

shaker
August 1st, 2009, 12:44 PM
Besides, the loggers will not work with us. Logging is the main reason a great trail was closed up here. The logging company had to grade the road after the spring melt because 4x4's were rutting the road in the spring. Then the loggers couldn't get their trucks back there.

The loggers are not, and will not be, on our side.


I am sure there is plenty of people in the logging industry that would say something very similar about us. Which leads to a self full filling prophecy on both sides.

Rattler
August 2nd, 2009, 05:57 PM
Do the loggers have the USFS convinced that the ground will heal faster if noone goes on it after they are done? I know when I go through a clearcut area like say around West Branch, they don't do the best job cleaning out stumps a lot of times.

Icemanii
August 3rd, 2009, 12:22 AM
Well, along with the operations that are going on, the FS has started paving some of the roads in the area. Part of this paving is widening the roads first, for the trucks being used.

Only good news is, they Are paving around the paystation and gates without waiting for the opportunity to remove them first. This may be a good sign as it leaves them the opportunity to use them once again.

timbercruiser
August 3rd, 2009, 08:51 AM
Besides, the loggers will not work with us. Logging is the main reason a great trail was closed up here. The logging company had to grade the road after the spring melt because 4x4's were rutting the road in the spring. Then the loggers couldn't get their trucks back there.

The loggers are not, and will not be, on our side.

As part of the contract, the loggers must leave the road "as good or in better condition" than it was. Plus, logging trucks need fairly smooth roads. Pulling a trailer through a mudhole is tough unless you're T-way!! then it's part of the game!:thumb:

Icemanii
August 3rd, 2009, 09:05 AM
As part of the contract, the loggers must leave the road "as good or in better condition" than it was. Plus, logging trucks need fairly smooth roads. Pulling a trailer through a mudhole is tough unless you're T-way!! then it's part of the game!:thumb:

So that is why the main road areas have been paved? Makes a bit more sense, but still not the best solution for all.

timbercruiser
August 4th, 2009, 07:44 AM
So that is why the main road areas have been paved? Makes a bit more sense, but still not the best solution for all.

Paving is probably from some other program in the Tellico area. Loggers use gravel roads and two tracks which have to be graded at the end of the project.

Trail_Fanatic
August 4th, 2009, 03:27 PM
Has anyone from Southern FWDA or United seen the post on Pirate yet?
I wonder if it might help them or not.

Icemanii
August 4th, 2009, 04:18 PM
Has anyone from Southern FWDA or United seen the post on Pirate yet?
I wonder if it might help them or not.

Heather is aware of it I know, not sure if Navy-Jeepster is or not.

Mr-S
August 5th, 2009, 01:25 AM
As part of the contract, the loggers must leave the road "as good or in better condition" than it was. Plus, logging trucks need fairly smooth roads. Pulling a trailer through a mudhole is tough unless you're T-way!! then it's part of the game!:thumb:

Isn't that what these are for?

http://203.36.33.170/WebFiles/IMW/8/07/014718807.jpg

Our group offered to foot the bill for the early summer grading before the trucks come in. We were told flat out, no.

Jeeperz-Creeperz
August 5th, 2009, 11:11 AM
If I was involved in logging and came across this I wouldn't see fullsize offroaders very friendly towards my goals, so why be friendly with theirs?

It is not the logging industry removing our rights, so no sense in throwing mud their direction.

I'm sorry, did I miss the part where the logging industry was HELPING us?

If I was a greenie and saw those pictures, I'd want ALL motorized vehicle access (read REMOVING YOUR RIGHTS) forbidden.

So, in effect, the logging industry is working against us because they are not being very responsible. Tellico was closed to us for the very same reasons that the logging industry is continuing to do, but at a higher level. Does that make sense?

Government to wheelers: "Sorry, you can't go in there, you're eroding the soil and disrupting the animal habitat and ecosystem."

Government to loggers: "Sure, you can cut down the trees and erode the soil and disrupt the animal habitat and ecosystem, it'll grow back."

WhiteRhino
August 5th, 2009, 01:21 PM
Government to loggers: "Sure, you can cut down the trees and erode the soil and disrupt the animal habitat and ecosystem, it'll grow back because there's more money in it for us."

Edited for you.

shaker
August 5th, 2009, 06:55 PM
I'm sorry, did I miss the part where the logging industry was HELPING us?

If I was a greenie and saw those pictures, I'd want ALL motorized vehicle access (read REMOVING YOUR RIGHTS) forbidden.

So, in effect, the logging industry is working against us because they are not being very responsible. Tellico was closed to us for the very same reasons that the logging industry is continuing to do, but at a higher level. Does that make sense?

Government to wheelers: "Sorry, you can't go in there, you're eroding the soil and disrupting the animal habitat and ecosystem."

Government to loggers: "Sure, you can cut down the trees and erode the soil and disrupt the animal habitat and ecosystem, it'll grow back."

So the logging should not be going on, is that what you are saying?

If so, how to you argue that it should be reopened to OHV use, when you are arguing against the logging?

IMHO all the people saying that they think the logging industry was working behind the scene using trout unlimited to shut it down to OHV use, needs a little more tin foil for their heads.

I thought GLFWDA was about bringing people together for the use of public land. Not throw a fit because land is being used, by some one else.

I am seriously losing faith in the association here.

shaker
August 5th, 2009, 07:20 PM
I'm sorry, did I miss the part where the logging industry was HELPING us?
If I was a greenie and saw those pictures, I'd want ALL motorized vehicle access (read REMOVING YOUR RIGHTS) forbidden.

So, in effect, the logging industry is working against us because they are not being very responsible. Tellico was closed to us for the very same reasons that the logging industry is continuing to do, but at a higher level. Does that make sense?

Government to wheelers: "Sorry, you can't go in there, you're eroding the soil and disrupting the animal habitat and ecosystem."

Government to loggers: "Sure, you can cut down the trees and erode the soil and disrupt the animal habitat and ecosystem, it'll grow back."

Apparently you missed this post.


The loggers I have worked with over the years are usually just like the rest of us (which means they play like we do and don't have any love for tree huggers). Of course, they have had some run-ins with ignorant people. I should note that when I deal with/inspect loggers, it is on private land, so NO ONE should be there doing anything. When I work on public land, I just do the cruising/marking/setup of the timber sale and the agency foresters do the inspections.


Why alienate the people making a living off of the logging industry? Does all of you really think there are not more people out there just like timbercruiser, that could join our cause. But could be run off by a thread like this?

I know I sure would not support an association for a hobby, that was fighting against my livelihood.

Icemanii
August 5th, 2009, 09:28 PM
So, since we don't want to upset any other land users, we should bury our heads in the sand?

The original point I was trying to make with this thread is we should be upset with the Forest Service. They are the ones allowing double standards to exist within the Tellico area.

On the one hand, they announce that our access has been revoked due to erosion and damage. Then they turn around and allow an operation into the exact area that is creating even more of the very problems we were removed for. This includes not monitoring the silt traps created by our sport, SFWDA to be exact.

As for the photo of the barrels and trash leaching contaminants into the soil, personally, I would be extremely upset about this no matter where it was taking place.

T-way
August 5th, 2009, 10:35 PM
Shaker......what part of all of this is so lost on you? NO ONE is trying to start an arguement about "loggers vs wheelers". I think it's safe for me to say that we ALL depend on the logging industry for the very wood and lumber that we depend on in our daily lives.


The INTENT of all of this was to simply point out the DOUBLE STANDARD that exists with the Forest Service: The wheelers were shut out of Tellico because of the (alleged) eroision and water quality issues, and land degredation, caused by our sport.

But then..........the Forest Service (who shut us out) allowed the loggers to go in and degrade the land, cause eroision, and silt the rivers. THE SAME THING THAT WE WERE SHUT OUT FOR, JUST DONE IN A DIFFERENT MANNER.

Again....this was never intended to be a "wheelers vs loggers" type thread. It's just pointing out the disgust that many of have with the above-referenced double standard.

And....please understand.....I mean NO personal affront to you in this post. I'm not arguing with you - just trying to point out what I perceived that you weren't understanding (based on your posts....if I was wrong in my evaluation, then I'm sorry).

Wheel on!!

:thumb:

phittie1100
August 6th, 2009, 01:21 PM
Kitson hit it right on the head - it's all about the money, and the money comes from logging. Logging creates huge revenue for state and federal governments that manage forest resources, and they fight tooth and nail to make sure that revenue stream continues. That revenue stream is directly dependent on the forest certification process. When the trees are not being harvested, the forest certification organizations expect idyllic babbling brooks, Bambi running through the forest and birds chirping overhead in the trees. It came up again last night at the ORV advisory board meeting - LED regularly stakes out areas identified by the forest certification process as damaged by illegal ORV use, because ultimately the state has to protect that revenue. Yes they are concerned about wetlands, and sandy grassy areas being damaged too, but their priority admittedly is the areas that can affect forest certification.

An acknowledged part of the logging process is ripping up the forest, stripping away the vegetation in some cases, then either manually replanting or letting natural progression do it nature's way. The disruption that logging causes is part of the process of harvesting the timber, so it does not affect forest certification as long as they get it back to Bambi in the proscribed amount of time. But as soon as a user-created trail pops up, or even an established road or trail starts to deteriorate, whether it creates erosion, water contamination or not, it messes up that pretty little Bambi picture that the forest certification folks see as the ideal, and our trails get closed.

Even though you and I would love to have access to those areas both before and after the harvesting process, using those same access roads the loggers created and ultimately doing no more damage to the environment than the logging process already does, we are simply recreationalists fighting a governmental revenue stream. Who do you think will win? They allow hikers and bikers and such to use the forests for recreation, why can't you guys just choose a backpack instead of a Jeep? (sarcasm intended)

I'm not saying I am giving up - far from it. But until we figure out how to change the "system" - make some headway in the arguments of carbon footprints, forest certification, eating your own poop while camping on BLM land, and all the other "initiatives" from the far, Far, FAR left fringes of the world, we need to figure out how to work within the "system" to get what we want. Big companies like Home Depot and Lowe's have already drunk the Kool-Aid - they have buckled under pressure to only purchase lumber from certified forests. So the next time you go to to the lumber yard, make sure you get a big cart full of lumber, then refuse to buy it after it is rung up and let them know you won't buy lumber from certified forests.

OK, maybe not.

:soap:

Rattler
August 6th, 2009, 03:50 PM
I found it a little hard to beleive but they made a statement on some show about logging on the History Channel that over 70% of the trees now come from tree farms.

Jeeperz-Creeperz
August 6th, 2009, 06:58 PM
Edited for you.

Yes, that does read better :thumb:

Jeeperz-Creeperz
August 6th, 2009, 07:10 PM
So the logging should not be going on, is that what you are saying?

No, if I was trying to say that I would have said that.



If so, how to you argue that it should be reopened to OHV use, when you are arguing against the logging?
I'm arguing that it never should have closed to OHV use if it's open to logging. If the logging industry supported us, they'd argue the same thing.



IMHO all the people saying that they think the logging industry was working behind the scene using trout unlimited to shut it down to OHV use, needs a little more tin foil for their heads.Can I borrow some?



I thought GLFWDA was about bringing people together for the use of public land. Not throw a fit because land is being used, by some one else.
That's not what the argument is about AT ALL, have you been paying attention?


I am seriously losing faith in the association here.
Why? Because most of it's members hate to see land closures FOR THE EXACT SAME REASON THAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE USING IT FOR?



Apparently you missed this post.

Nope. The "Logging Industry" is not the people that work in it. It's a big-headed corporate monster.

I'd even venture to guess that those pictures depict the actions of employees that do not give a **** about the environment, much less wheel.


Why alienate the people making a living off of the logging industry? Does all of you really think there are not more people out there just like timbercruiser, that could join our cause. But could be run off by a thread like this?

Responsible land users wouldn't stand for the actions (or lack of) depicted in those pictures no matter what industry their in. How does education alienate anyone?


I know I sure would not support an association for a
hobby, that was fighting against my livelihood.

I don't even know how to reply to that, so many thoughts run through my head, so I'll just stop here.....

Jeeperz-Creeperz
August 6th, 2009, 07:13 PM
The original point I was trying to make with this thread is we should be upset with the Forest Service. They are the ones allowing double standards to exist within the Tellico area.


Just thought this was worth quoting for everyone's benefit....

Icemanii
August 6th, 2009, 07:16 PM
I found it a little hard to beleive but they made a statement on some show about logging on the History Channel that over 70% of the trees now come from tree farms.

Wow, I wonder what constitutes a 'tree farm'?

Rattler
August 6th, 2009, 07:29 PM
Wow, I wonder what constitutes a 'tree farm'?

They actually gave the definition but I can't remember what it was.

WhiteRhino
August 7th, 2009, 06:33 AM
Wow, I wonder what constitutes a 'tree farm'?

I have a customer in Minnesota who's family owns a tree farm. I don't know any of the mumbo jumbo but he was showing us a couple cross sections of trees that were the same type. Both were about 4" in diameter. One had growth rings that were close together as you would naturally suspect and the tree was something like 15 years old. The other "farmed" tree had growth rings far apart and was something like 4 or 5 years old. The point is that they have been able to produce a tree that grows 3 or so times faster than naturally.

We asked about the strength of the tree since the growth rings were so far apart. He claimed it to be just as strong.:confused:

phittie1100
August 7th, 2009, 09:21 AM
I have a customer in Minnesota who's family owns a tree farm. I don't know any of the mumbo jumbo but he was showing us a couple cross sections of trees that were the same type. Both were about 4" in diameter. One had growth rings that were close together as you would naturally suspect and the tree was something like 15 years old. The other "farmed" tree had growth rings far apart and was something like 4 or 5 years old. The point is that they have been able to produce a tree that grows 3 or so times faster than naturally.

We asked about the strength of the tree since the growth rings were so far apart. He claimed it to be just as strong.:confused:

Should be fine for a 2x4 - but usually tighter growth rings make a glued-up hardwood panel a lot more stable and less prone to cupping. Makes a big difference when you are making a cabinet or table top. That's why even the higher-end furniture manufacturers are using man-made panels with veneers, only using solid wood for the edging.