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Icemanii
June 3rd, 2009, 02:02 PM
For those who don't visit Pirate, the OP in this thread made a serious set of errors and the result was having to have his family air evacuated off his FJC in the middle of a river. Now since he wanted his 15 minutes of fame, he thinks he should be the spokes person for OHV users. The problem is, he is not knowledgeable enough to do so and most likely will end up hurting our community more than helping it.

It is food for thought as we should all be aware that the opposition most likely reads the majority of what we write in these off road forums.

http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=792592

WhiteRhino
June 3rd, 2009, 10:04 PM
I've read through the pirate thread and there's a couple things I don't understand. I only know that they were caught in a flash flood and their vehicle was caught in the flood but the family escaped. So, what did he do wrong? I AM NOT speaking from experience, is he stupid for being caught in a flash flood or does this happen accidentally?

I agree there is no winning with the greenies.

JohnnyJ
June 3rd, 2009, 10:23 PM
My understanding is that Fordyce creek where 4x4s pass is below a dam. Over the years on pirate, I have seen the locals post up the flow rates, and I believe they are posted somewhere, and when it's above a certain level, they don't recommend crossing.

I don't believe the rate changes randomly, but occassionally a less experienced wheeler will try and cross when the rate is too high and their rig gets washed downriver.

Icemanii
June 3rd, 2009, 11:43 PM
I've read through the pirate thread and there's a couple things I don't understand. I only know that they were caught in a flash flood and their vehicle was caught in the flood but the family escaped. So, what did he do wrong? I AM NOT speaking from experience, is he stupid for being caught in a flash flood or does this happen accidentally?

I agree there is no winning with the greenies.


My understanding is that Fordyce creek where 4x4s pass is below a dam. Over the years on pirate, I have seen the locals post up the flow rates, and I believe they are posted somewhere, and when it's above a certain level, they don't recommend crossing.

I don't believe the rate changes randomly, but occassionally a less experienced wheeler will try and cross when the rate is too high and their rig gets washed downriver.

Correct, the flow rates are posted at many places for the public to see and read. It was not a flash flood, but a planned dam opening that had been announced for weeks. Add in the fact that he didn't read up on the trail he was headed for, and it created a dangerous situation.

What he did and continues to do, is talk to the media on Land use that he has no clue of. He has even stated that he is not sure what the answers are, but still answers them.
To me, he is enjoying his 15 minutes in the limelight and doesn't want to give them up.

WhiteRhino
June 4th, 2009, 05:39 AM
Gotcha. I thought this was the one I saw on the news where the flood was a result of a storm upstream.

Either way, he needs to shut up.

Jarhead
June 4th, 2009, 07:53 AM
What he did and continues to do, is talk to the media on Land use that he has no clue of. He has even stated that he is not sure what the answers are, but still answers them.
To me, he is enjoying his 15 minutes in the limelight and doesn't want to give them up.

Stupid is, Stupid does! The man knowingly, wittingly doesn't know/have the answers, yet he perceives he can excuse his stupidity if he keeps talking. Give him enough rope is all they are doing...

Icemanii
June 4th, 2009, 10:01 AM
Gotcha. I thought this was the one I saw on the news where the flood was a result of a storm upstream.

Either way, he needs to shut up.

I think you are referring to the incident in Moab about a week or so ago. Jeep stalled in a stream while crossing and was swept away by the flash flood from the mountains about 80 miles away. That guy actually did well, when they head the water coming he got his family out of the water and to high ground.


Stupid is, Stupid does! The man knowingly, wittingly doesn't know/have the answers, yet he perceives he can excuse his stupidity if he keeps talking. Give him enough rope is all they are doing...

Problem for me is, he was running a barely modified rig on 33's. Now he is suddenly an expert on rigs running 38"+ tires and modified suspensions. Talking about how these rigs impact the environment vs. stock vehicles, etc.

Problem with them giving him enough rope to hang himself is, good chance our sport will get hit by his swinging boots.

Jarhead
June 4th, 2009, 10:16 AM
[COLOR="Red"]IProblem for me is, he was running a barely modified rig on 33's. Now he is suddenly an expert on rigs running 38"+ tires and modified suspensions. Talking about how these rigs impact the environment vs. stock vehicles, etc.

Problem with them giving him enough rope to hang himself is, good chance our sport will get hit by his swinging boots.

I couldn't agree more...

Trying to help the guy has no benefit either because he doesn't have a clue as to just remaining silent.

shaker
June 4th, 2009, 10:55 AM
Maybe there should be a IQ standard for wheeling supporters. But then again we sure would lose a lot of supporters.

To me the greeny's look dumber, but yeah we should all attack a fellow wheeler. Makes us look so good.

USMC 0369
June 4th, 2009, 11:07 AM
I've personally never liked Pirate for this very simple reason: You cannot ask anything without being flamed. This is my experience with it, you can agree or disagree as you see fit.

Now, having said that, I must add that this FJ guy is making himself into an asshat by not listening to KNOWN EXPERTS such as Del. I don't go on pirate enough to know any of the other people commenting. If they're professionals, they really need some work on people skills.

As a rule, I don't comment outside of what I can speak intelligently about. Maybe this FJ guy should try the same.

Icemanii
June 4th, 2009, 11:22 AM
Maybe there should be a IQ standard for wheeling supporters. But then again we sure would lose a lot of supporters.

To me the greeny's look dumber, but yeah we should all attack a fellow wheeler. Makes us look so good.

Shaker, not agreeing with the attacks on the guy. But when experts like Del try to tell the guy and he doesn't listen, then he is dumb. Going to disagree that the greenies look dumber, they are quite active and have a lot of politicians attention. Add in the fact that "Green" is the in thing right now, and they have politicians jumping on the band wagon. Del, Kurt and a few others actually tried PM's to the guy explaining to just let it die, but he didn't listen.
As for the attacks, it is no different than almost any wheeling site on the internet with the 'in' crowd ganging up on the weak.


I've personally never liked Pirate for this very simple reason: You cannot ask anything without being flamed. This is my experience with it, you can agree or disagree as you see fit.

Now, having said that, I must add that this FJ guy is making himself into an asshat by not listening to KNOWN EXPERTS such as Del. I don't go on pirate enough to know any of the other people commenting. If they're professionals, they really need some work on people skills.

As a rule, I don't comment outside of what I can speak intelligently about. Maybe this FJ guy should try the same.

USMC, you are right, there is a lot of flaming on Pirate, most of it by wannabe bad boys, just like many other sites.

I agree with you that the FJ guy needs to listen to Del, Kurt and a few others about just keeping his mouth shut. However, I think he is enjoying the attention. My OP was that his uninformed comments can cause more harm than good to our sport.

shaker
June 4th, 2009, 11:32 AM
I agree, the same thing is on every forum I have ever visited. Somethings never change, but maybe someday............... maybe someday.


I do not agree that the greeny's all look smarter. They are the same as us, just maybe with a slightly higher average IQ. But not much you can do about that.

USMC 0369
June 4th, 2009, 11:33 AM
...I think he is enjoying the attention. My OP was that his uninformed comments can cause more harm than good to our sport.

Agreed. :thumb:

T-way
June 4th, 2009, 11:58 AM
Am I the only one to think this way, or does it seem that this FJ guy has already been a victim of the greenie's "divide and conquer" tactics?

Seems to me that, all of his other shortcomings aside, he seems to be pushing his personal belief that a wheeler such as himself, in a lightly-modified, smaller, near-stock vehicle is somehow taking a higer road (read: less environmentally destructive) stance on wheeling than the guys running the big, high-horsepower, large-tired rigs.

Does anyone else get that from his comments, or am I off-base?

If anyone's interested in my opinion (haha), I think the guys an idiot who screwed up, can't admit it, and wants his fame as others have already stated!!

:banghead:

The true measure of someone isn't how they handle success, but how they handle failure!!!!

Icemanii
June 4th, 2009, 01:08 PM
Am I the only one to think this way, or does it seem that this FJ guy has already been a victim of the greenie's "divide and conquer" tactics?

Seems to me that, all of his other shortcomings aside, he seems to be pushing his personal belief that a wheeler such as himself, in a lightly-modified, smaller, near-stock vehicle is somehow taking a higer road (read: less environmentally destructive) stance on wheeling than the guys running the big, high-horsepower, large-tired rigs.

Does anyone else get that from his comments, or am I off-base?

If anyone's interested in my opinion (haha), I think the guys an idiot who screwed up, can't admit it, and wants his fame as others have already stated!!

:banghead:

The true measure of someone isn't how they handle success, but how they handle failure!!!!

I agree with you in a way. He is a victim of the divide and conquer because he let himself. I think that when the 'super-wheelers' on Pirate started jumping on him, he took to the defensive and tried to justify that his wheeling mistake was less harmful than their big rigs.
Then it kept snowballing out of control. This has become a case of the more he says, the more foot he gets to eat, and the worse it gets.

As for the greenies being smarter than us, in a way, they are. They are smart enough NOT to post pictures on the internet for all to see of themselves doing illegal things.

shaker
June 4th, 2009, 01:31 PM
I agree with you in a way. He is a victim of the divide and conquer because he let himself. I think that when the 'super-wheelers' on Pirate started jumping on him, he took to the defensive and tried to justify that his wheeling mistake was less harmful than their big rigs.
Then it kept snowballing out of control. This has become a case of the more he says, the more foot he gets to eat, and the worse it gets.

As for the greenies being smarter than us, in a way, they are. They are smart enough NOT to post pictures on the internet for all to see of themselves doing illegal things.

And then spread it all over the Internet, making sure as many people see it as possible.

WhiteRhino
June 4th, 2009, 08:13 PM
I think you are referring to the incident in Moab about a week or so ago. Jeep stalled in a stream while crossing and was swept away by the flash flood from the mountains about 80 miles away. That guy actually did well, when they head the water coming he got his family out of the water and to high ground.


Yes, that's the one. That's why I thought he was being flamed for nothing at first. Now that I know the story, he needs to shut up. They may be better off to delete the thread.

Trail_Fanatic
June 4th, 2009, 10:13 PM
Hmmm . . .

Reminds me of a post I made a little over 3 years ago now.
The only reason I remember making it is because it was one of the first posts I ever made. It was over on GL4x4 when I first started to get involved in Land Use (before I was even GLFWDA). I was talking about people getting more involved in saving our two tracks here in Michigan. I think the thread still makes some valuable points, but here's the excerpt this thread brought to my mind (From post 31 of this thread http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthread.php?t=9092):


I just want to be SURE NO ONE who wants to help is left out, organized or not.

Conversely, I don't want us all going out willy nilly and accidentally, unknowingly, or unwittingly screw up ANYTHING anyone else has going.

That REQUIRES information and collaboration.

This fellow doesn't seem to be informed or collaborating.


. . . but yeah we should all attack a fellow wheeler. Makes us look so good.

I don't agree with flaming or attacking a fellow wheeler. I hope it doesn't look like we're doing that here. It's NOT what this site is about. I saw it more as an example of what not to do if presented with a similar situation.

Jarhead
June 5th, 2009, 07:33 AM
Maybe there should be a IQ standard for wheeling supporters. But then again we sure would lose a lot of supporters.

To me the greeny's look dumber, but yeah we should all attack a fellow wheeler. Makes us look so good.
The real issue here is the fellow wheeler has failed to accept (or shall I said heed) any of the advice people have tried to share. If one asks for advice, than fails to follow said advice, what can we do to help?

Like others have stated here, I tend to be quiet when I am not educated enough to discuss a topic. Although I may know many things, I still willingly admit I have a great deal to learn. When I find myself in a position to ask for advice, I also tend to discuss the advice in detail so as to get as much of an understanding as I can muster prior to regurgitating the advice.

I would also agree, I don't believe the intent was to embarrass or attack this fellow wheeler, it is an example of how things spiral out of control when we try to defend our own actions, while knowingly we were in the wrong.

As the saying goes, "To err is human, to forgive is divine."

shaker
June 5th, 2009, 10:37 AM
The real issue here is the fellow wheeler has failed to accept (or shall I said heed) any of the advice people have tried to share. If one asks for advice, than fails to follow said advice, what can we do to help?

Like others have stated here, I tend to be quiet when I am not educated enough to discuss a topic. Although I may know many things, I still willingly admit I have a great deal to learn. When I find myself in a position to ask for advice, I also tend to discuss the advice in detail so as to get as much of an understanding as I can muster prior to regurgitating the advice.

I would also agree, I don't believe the intent was to embarrass or attack this fellow wheeler, it is an example of how things spiral out of control when we try to defend our own actions, while knowingly we were in the wrong.

As the saying goes, "To err is human, to forgive is divine."

He said he is not conversing with them anymore, is that not heeding thee advice?

I am one of the ignorant ones, I have gone to a couple DNR meetings having no idea what to say, so I said little to nothing. I feel that all I did was waste my time going, and the pirate thread and this one have helped none. :idea:

Jarhead
June 5th, 2009, 11:00 AM
He said he is not conversing with them anymore, is that not heeding thee advice?

I am one of the ignorant ones, I have gone to a couple DNR meetings having no idea what to say, so I said little to nothing. I feel that all I did was waste my time going, and the pirate thread and this one have helped none. :idea:

The not conversing part, yes; trying to defend his actions when he was knowingly wrong, no.

I will have to wholeheartedly agree that the majority of DNR Meetings I attend is waste of time. But the need to be there so they are aware we aren't going anywhere and we will continue to work to make change is imperative. I, like the DNR, spend considerable time gathering information and documenting actions taken and/or opportunities missed. I try following those that have been successful in achieving their own goals as I continue to do what I can for our sport.

I wholeheartedly agree (again) we need to reach out and help one another, for if we can't band together the greenies have already won. As to this thread and that of pirate, I have to leave for each individuals interpretation as to what they take from it.

T-way
June 9th, 2009, 06:14 PM
Well stated Bob!!

:thumb:

navy-jeepster
June 29th, 2009, 02:42 PM
I followed that thread on Pirate for the whole thing. I even commented that he needed to stay away from the Anti-Access crowd, as they would eat him and his family for breakfast. I am Navy-Jeepster over on Pirate.

This is my opinion, as I think he got over his head with the issues of trying to recover his rig, protect his family, and save face with the wheeling crowd.

He did something wrong, and has pretty much commented about that. Also, this is what the news media printed, and aired. they failed to show his comments to those that helped him recover his rig.
He is out of work, and now with a busted rig from his actions that day.
They are lucky to be alive after their attempt at rafting a FJC.

The guy has pretty much stopped talking on Pirate after he got flamed by many people their. I do not condone the flaming that took place, as it is the norm is many of the threads their.
We try to keep it away from the Land Use section, and they all know it.
He posted the same question in numerous threads on Pirate about the Enviros asking him questions.

I would hope that we could educate him to the point that he could become a good advocate for 4x4 access, as he does have a law background. Always a good asset in our sport, but those that flamed him, may have ruined that for us in land use. We will see what happens with him in the near future.

Thanks

Todd

Icemanii
June 30th, 2009, 09:14 AM
Agree with you Todd that the flaming was, well typical Pirate. They are consistent if nothing else. However, my purpose with this thread was to point out just what you stated, be careful what you say to the media.

As you pointed out in your post, he made positive comments to the medial, but all they reported was what made for sensational reporting. It doesn't matter how much good you say, it is what the media perceives as exciting or popular that they will report.

It is like the old Chrysler minivan commercial when they were giving out the free Shrek II DVD's. The commercial goes thru all the hoopla of the benefits of the minivan, then it shows the kid sitting there thinking of what he is hearing.
His take on the commercial? :blahblah::blahblah:"Free Shrek II DVD" :blahblah::blahblah:.

I would hope that those with calmer heads can get FJ to join us in or fight. However, I think the biggest hurdle in doing so is his own ego. He refused to listen to people like Del and Bebe and stop talking. In his defense, I think he got caught up in the whole media mess and it spiraled out of control faster than he thought. But if he is a good lawyer, he should be able to recognize that the media is out to twist stories into sensational news, they don't care about the mundane.

These are my thoughts, for what they are worth.

RJ

navy-jeepster
July 1st, 2009, 01:16 AM
Icemanii

I agree with you about it spiraling out of control on him quickly.

Now that things have calmed down, I plan on sending him a PM to see if we can get him to start being active in land use.

Cal4Wheel can always use another lawyer to help with land law if needed.
I think that was the guys background. Use him to our advantage in the near future after the greenies think they might have burned him.
Most of the greenies follow threads on Pirate.

I for one stay out of other areas of Pirate, as the flames get pretty hot at times.

Todd

shaker
July 1st, 2009, 10:21 AM
I don't even have an account on pirate, because I know I would just make the flames and nonsense on that forum worse. I lurk pirate and other big forums like it, for the good that comes from them. Good tech advice and such. But in the big picture I think forums like pirate do as much harm as good.

As stated our political enemies surf those sites, and they find plenty to use against us. From things like this thread, and other attention seeking threads from modified vehicle crashes on the road, to illegal wheeling. (which generally get lots of attention, and are spread all over the Internet)

Seems like we shoot ourselves in the foot over and over again. A forum can be friendly and represent the off road community well when small and insignificant. But as soon as it gets big enough to get attention things go south, the flames start and never stop.

Kinda like this thread, I just see it spreading a thread from pirate that I would just as soon not be there. And is skating on the verge of a blow up here. :ironman:

Icemanii
July 1st, 2009, 07:16 PM
Icemanii

I agree with you about it spiraling out of control on him quickly.

Now that things have calmed down, I plan on sending him a PM to see if we can get him to start being active in land use.

Cal4Wheel can always use another lawyer to help with land law if needed.
I think that was the guys background. Use him to our advantage in the near future after the greenies think they might have burned him.
Most of the greenies follow threads on Pirate.

I for one stay out of other areas of Pirate, as the flames get pretty hot at times.

Todd

Excellent Todd! :thumb:

Thank you for taking the ball and running with it. I agree, with they guys background in law, we could use his help. I think if he is approached by the calmer, experienced people from the sites he will respond much better.

Jarhead
July 2nd, 2009, 07:36 AM
Who says good things can't from bad beginnings?

I would like to Thank All of You for your Contributions.

shaker
August 6th, 2009, 07:53 PM
The not conversing part, yes; trying to defend his actions when he was knowingly wrong, no.

I will have to wholeheartedly agree that the majority of DNR Meetings I attend is waste of time. But the need to be there so they are aware we aren't going anywhere and we will continue to work to make change is imperative. I, like the DNR, spend considerable time gathering information and documenting actions taken and/or opportunities missed. I try following those that have been successful in achieving their own goals as I continue to do what I can for our sport.

I wholeheartedly agree (again) we need to reach out and help one another, for if we can't band together the greenies have already won. As to this thread and that of pirate, I have to leave for each individuals interpretation as to what they take from it.


You know, I didn't understand this the first time I read it. But it is starting to sink in now.