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Trail_Fanatic
January 30th, 2009, 11:05 PM
Drummond Island

Itís Official!

The Great Lakes Four Wheel Drive Association (GLFWDA) is proud to announce that the
Drummond Island ORV Route has been approved!


It has taken several long years and countless man-hours supplied by scores of diligent volunteers, but the process has finally come to fruition. The MDNR has announced the official designation of the Drummond Island ORV Route system. This is Michiganís FIRST ORV Route designed for the 4x4 Jeep, truck, and utility vehicle enthusiast.



GLFWDA would like to thank our coalition partners:

Drummond Island Off Road Club, Drummond Island Tourist Association, Eastern U. P. Transit Authority, Hummer Club International, Jeep Jamboree USA, and all of the dedicated individuals within the Michigan Department of Natural Resources for all of their assistance and support during this long process.




BE A PART OF HISTORY


GLFWDA invites ALL Michigan 4x4 enthusiasts to join us on Drummond the weekend of MAY 9th, 2009 to assist the Association with the installation of the confidence markers and signage for the new Route system. It is critically important that the recreational 4x4 drivers of the region show the Department, island businesses, and island residents that this route is highly desirable to enthusiasts by showing up in mass. Please wear/display your club or GLFWDA logos if at all possible. Plans are being finalized for a Saturday evening gathering after the work is completed. More information will be announced as it becomes available. Please join us!




Make your reservations TODAY!


These are the lodging facilities on the Island that helped to make our Route a reality.
Please thank them with your patronage:

* Drummond Island Resort and Conference Center
www.drummondisland.com
906-493-1000

* Drummond Island Yacht Haven & Resort
www.diyachthaven.com
800-543-4743

*Drummond Island Vacation Properties
www.drummondislandvacationproperties.com
800-292-5064

*Wa-Wen Resort & RV Park
www.wawenresort.com
877-493-5445

*The Bear Track Restaurant and Motel
swalker@alphacomm.net
906-493-5090

*Jim Kelley
North Haven Rentals & Gifts
Your Video Connection
Jobber Limited
(906) 493-5567

kb8ymf
January 30th, 2009, 11:43 PM
Congrats Pat and all others that were involved
j-kb8ymf

rodolo
January 31st, 2009, 12:19 AM
yes thank you! :yourock:

yj_hank
January 31st, 2009, 12:25 AM
Thanks for all the hard work. I am going to make every attempt to make it up to help.


Henry

JohnnyJ
January 31st, 2009, 12:32 AM
Very cool guys.

May 9th is my daughter's birthday, otherwise I would have loved to come up. That will be awesome to have it official.

oh yeah, is Marble Head a part of this?

Greenway
January 31st, 2009, 01:31 AM
That is good news!

Any maps yet?

Trail_Fanatic
January 31st, 2009, 01:46 AM
oh yeah, is Marble Head a part of this?

You bet! :thumb:


That is good news!

Any maps yet?

Very soon.

DDS4X4
January 31st, 2009, 03:45 AM
OK, WOW, GREAT, it's on the calendar!

Oh yea ... THANKS to ALL!!!! including MI government folks!

yogi
January 31st, 2009, 05:44 AM
good job guys:thumb:

WhiteRhino
January 31st, 2009, 07:33 AM
Great news!:woot: Might be able to make the date. Would like to come if possible.

So, let me ask a couple questions that most are dieing to hear. Marblehead is open as mentioned. What about other 4x4 challenges? In the past, our ORV routes around the state have been pretty mundane 2 tracks. The rumor mill has been that this will be something different where 4 wheel drive is not only allowed but will be needed in certain areas. Can you expand?:thumb:

Yetti
January 31st, 2009, 09:01 AM
Good Job guys!

..and here I turned down buying 20 acres up there cause there was nothing to do :banghead:

phittie1100
January 31st, 2009, 11:01 AM
Congratulations to Pat, Bob, Mike and everyone else involved!

Pat - any of the facilities listed have camping facilities?

Mr-S
January 31st, 2009, 11:39 AM
Isn't May 9th Mother's Day? Might reduce the number of people that can get away.

yj_hank
January 31st, 2009, 12:32 PM
Mothers day is the 10th. I may have to come up friday, help on saturday and leave at about 6 or 7 pm to head home for mothers day.

Henry

Mr-S
January 31st, 2009, 02:01 PM
I meant Mother's Day weekend.

trucks are for girls!
January 31st, 2009, 02:24 PM
i would assume that would make less people show because they would more than likely be traveling to see well their family...

Mr-S
January 31st, 2009, 03:43 PM
My wife is just gonna have to understand I have better things to do with my time than mess with this stupid mother's day crap.

:lmao:


Glad she isn't on here.

Jarhead
January 31st, 2009, 03:48 PM
Great news!:woot: Might be able to make the date. Would like to come if possible.

So, let me ask a couple questions that most are dieing to hear. Marblehead is open as mentioned. What about other 4x4 challenges? In the past, our ORV routes around the state have been pretty mundane 2 tracks. The rumor mill has been that this will be something different where 4 wheel drive is not only allowed but will be needed in certain areas. Can you expand?:thumb:
Several issues were involved in determining the definition of terms used and to what degree maintenance would be required to maintain access. I am thrilled to say we were successful in getting a portion of the re-designation at a Level 3 on a good day and as mother nature takes her course we will see it get better. The maps we worked out will actually identify two-wheel drive accessible and four-wheel drive recommended plus four-wheel drive needed.

I am as anxious as you all to see the actual maps in print for distribution.

Ms.ZJ
January 31st, 2009, 04:03 PM
Thank you for all your hard work!

:yourock:

Our sport needs this.

Walker
January 31st, 2009, 04:07 PM
Here is a recent,, working copy of the map. We'll be going to print next week with the Island map we've been working on. ...If it doesn't show up..if someone who knows how to upload a jpeg provides me an email.. I'll send an image to them,, and they can upload to the web site. Never mind,, I see it worked.

Something I'd like to add.. No section of old trail was dropped or eliminated during the proposal process. Actually, new sections of trail were added. However, there were some concessions made by everyone involved. From the Off-road perspective, nothing was conceeded that had to do with drivability...ie..cutting back on useable/driveable trail. Basicly, the off-road concessions pertained to limiting access. Things like having to park 60 ft back from the edge of Marblehead over look.. or curtailing full access to drive out onto Shale beach.

As I said we gained new trail... rough new trails... not roads, not two track.. but stone ridges and a short but interesting hill climb to name a couple.

Trail_Fanatic
January 31st, 2009, 04:49 PM
Congratulations to Pat, Bob, Mike and everyone else involved!

Pat - any of the facilities listed have camping facilities?


Yes.


Mother's Day?

SoB.


Oh well.
I'll call my mom from the Island and probably have my wife with me. :thumb:

Trail_Fanatic
January 31st, 2009, 04:50 PM
One change to the posted map:

Connor's Hole should be red "Challenge", not orange.

:thumb:

Rattler
January 31st, 2009, 04:59 PM
Hmm. I am off work that weekend and it would be a good spring getaway . . . . . . .

I will bug the wife and make sure we have no other plans.

oz97tj
January 31st, 2009, 06:21 PM
I can't wait till the 9th!

hunter4x4
January 31st, 2009, 07:51 PM
I've been waiting for this since June of '07!!!

It feels REALLY good to see the good guys win one once in a while! This is a CLASSIC example of how a coalition of users, community, and administrative & legislative governmental bodies can work together, to develop and implement a solution to an issue that satisfies all of the stakeholder's needs and issues!!

I would like to personally thank Pat H. in the DNR Soo office, Steve W. of the Drummond Island Four Wheel Drive Club, and Pat B. of Great Lakes for all the work - ideas, proposals, e-mails, telecons, legwork, and just plain good ol' blood sweat & tears - they invested in this initiative! 'Twas a pleasure working with you guys!!! See ya on the 9th!!


Mike Olmstead
Drummond Island Jeep Jamboree
GLFWDA Land Use Committee Member
United Four Wheel Drive

PeteC
January 31st, 2009, 09:06 PM
Already had plans to be on the island that weekend, so you will see me there.

duntruckin
January 31st, 2009, 09:07 PM
This is cool thank .:yourock:

WhiteRhino
January 31st, 2009, 11:04 PM
Well, I have to say something else to you guys. I was very skeptical about this and at the time, felt that the ticket should have been handled different. I really felt they were going to drag you down a never ending path to nowhere.

I'm pleased to say I was wrong.:wave:

Good job.:thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb:

Trail_Fanatic
February 1st, 2009, 02:30 AM
I was very skeptical about this and at the time, felt that the ticket should have been handled different.


Agreed 100%!

Unfortunately it wasn't our decision to make.
All we could do was make the best of the situation, after the fact.

To be honest, I too am more than a little surprised that we didn't get bogged down for eternity too.

Walker
February 1st, 2009, 08:07 AM
Mike Olmstead is correct when he said it took a coalition of people to make it happen. Mike and the Jamboree ticket incident was the catalyst.
The fact he kept a level head, when others suggested a more drastic course of action, made the all difference. I can't tell you how much of his life that he poured into this project.

This process required finding the right individuals who believed creating an ORV route on Drummond was the best course of action to take for everyone involved and for various reasons. The people and their reasons for helping spread all across the board. People supported this project from inside the Governers office, inside the DNR, inside State Sentors offices, State Representive Offices, the Sault Tribe of Chippewa Indians.. Hunting interests..Local business and more. Everyone had their own reasons as to why they lent a hand. Believe me.. some of them could give a damn about ORV's.

We all owe Mike a ton. The Drummond ORV route would still be a pipe dream without him.

TOOLTIME
February 1st, 2009, 08:34 AM
congratulations to all, thanks for all the hard work.

Zygfred
February 2nd, 2009, 03:06 PM
Thanks for all of your hard work on this project!!!!!!!!

Thanks Pat for your detication for the sport. Every one in the club really apperciates all of your work on saving this sport.


Chad
Two Tracker Four wheel drive Club

Ridgerunner
February 3rd, 2009, 06:02 PM
Great job guys :thumb:

Thank you for all your efforts.

Now with the adoption of this new route, are we, the "Full size users" limited to the use of only this route? I have run many trails on the island over the years that are not on the route map. Are these trails off limits now?

I just want to make sure I stay legal the next time I visit the island.

Trail_Fanatic
February 3rd, 2009, 07:02 PM
Great job guys :thumb:

Thank you for all your efforts.

Now with the adoption of this new route, are we, the "Full size users" limited to the use of only this route? I have run many trails on the island over the years that are not on the route map. Are these trails off limits now?

I just want to make sure I stay legal the next time I visit the island.


The standard 'Forest Road' (2WD) rule will apply to the rest of the Island's transportation system. This is the rule LED was trying to apply to the trails that now comprise the new Route.

DieselMTU
February 3rd, 2009, 09:54 PM
Thank you to all for all your efforts... Glad to hear my second favorite place to visit (Houghton still wins out) will be available to enjoy for many years.

One thing we all must remember, we still have to respect all the rules, and use our common sense on the trails, because we don't want anything taken away.

hunter4x4
February 3rd, 2009, 10:18 PM
Great job guys :thumb:

Thank you for all your efforts.

Now with the adoption of this new route, are we, the "Full size users" limited to the use of only this route? I have run many trails on the island over the years that are not on the route map. Are these trails off limits now?

I just want to make sure I stay legal the next time I visit the island.

Ridgerunner: Thank you for the kind wards about the ORV Route system!

And thanks for your determination and desire to "stay legal"! It's that mindset that's going to make the Drummond ORV Route system a huge success!!!

For the record, the new "ORV Route" system is comprosed of well over 40 miles of trail. Most people will NOT be able to run it all in one day, probably even two!

I've been running trails up there for darn near 20 years with 4x4's, and I've been going up there since I was a teenager in the 60's (OK, now you now know ABOUT how old I am! LOL!), and for the most part, if it's not on the approved ORV Route map, it is probably not there for for one of two reasons: The trail crosses or dead ends at private property someplace along the way, or it's an environmentally sensitive area (Matxon Plains and the Alvar for example). (A third possible situation may be that there are a number of "ORV Trails" (50" wide ATV trails) on the Island that in many places are wide enough to accomodate a Jeep or Jeep-sized ORV, but are NOT legal for FSVs.)

For the record, when we get the trail properly signed, if it's not signed as an "ORV Route" (as opposed to an "ORV Trail") it is NOT legal for a full sized vehicle to be on.

As Pat B. of Great Lake Four Wheel Drive Assn. indicated, you're not limited to these trails, but if you're on anything else, forest road/2WD rules apply.

I think I can speak for the coalition of people and organizations that put this system together: We strived to put together a complete SYSTEM of trails that provides variety, challenge, and opportunity for the broad spectrum of full size ORV enthusiasts - from stock Jeeps, H3s and up - such that all enthusiasts can enjoy the entire Island!

Enjoy the "ORV Route" system - a whole lot of blood sweat and tears went into this initiative!!

Mike Olmstead
Jeep Jamboree
Great Lakes Four Wheel Drive Assn (Land Use Committee)
Drummond Island Off Road Club
United Four Wheel Drive

phittie1100
February 4th, 2009, 09:03 AM
For the record, when we get the trail properly signed, if it's not signed as an "ORV Route" (as opposed to an "ORV Trail") it is NOT legal for a full sized vehicle to be on.

As Pat B. of Great Lake Four Wheel Drive Assn. indicated, you're not limited to these trails, but if you're on anything else, forest road/2WD rules apply.



Mike is this a new approach by the department, because it seems contradictory - or maybe I am being over-anal (I'm an accountant, it's what I get paid for!)? If it is marked ORV Trail, but meets the definition of a forest road, I should still be legal, right? Or has the inventory been adjusted so that if it is marked "Trail" it will definitely not meet the definition of a forest road?

phittie1100
February 4th, 2009, 09:09 AM
any of the facilities listed have camping facilities?

Anyone help a clueless tax guy?

Trail_Fanatic
February 4th, 2009, 09:30 AM
Anyone help a clueless tax guy?


Sorry about that Paul!

H & H has camping.
I think Wa-Wen might too.

:thumb:

WhiteRhino
February 4th, 2009, 10:00 AM
Mike is this a new approach by the department, because it seems contradictory - or maybe I am being over-anal (I'm an accountant, it's what I get paid for!)? If it is marked ORV Trail, but meets the definition of a forest road, I should still be legal, right? Or has the inventory been adjusted so that if it is marked "Trail" it will definitely not meet the definition of a forest road?

It's been my understanding that if you can fit down a "trail" with your ORV sticker, you are legal. There's been much discussion about this & it's never been clearly defined.

Trail_Fanatic
February 4th, 2009, 10:42 AM
Mike is this a new approach by the department, because it seems contradictory - or maybe I am being over-anal (I'm an accountant, it's what I get paid for!)? If it is marked ORV Trail, but meets the definition of a forest road, I should still be legal, right? Or has the inventory been adjusted so that if it is marked "Trail" it will definitely not meet the definition of a forest road?


It's been my understanding that if you can fit down a "trail" with your ORV sticker, you are legal. There's been much discussion about this & it's never been clearly defined.


Only if you can do so in grandma's Buick.

That was the problem with the 'trails' on Drummond.
Most were no longer passable by a 2WD car and therefore LED said they didn't qualify as Forest Roads. Personally, I would have liked to see it argued that they were Forest Roads until officially rescinded by the Department, but then we would have run the risk of having them officially closed. Route designation had the lowest risk to the sport.

WhiteRhino
February 4th, 2009, 11:10 AM
Only if you can do so in grandma's Buick.

Pat,
I'm only talking about the signed 50" ORV "trails". From what I have understood, the ORV system negates the 2wd clause. True or not?

Trail_Fanatic
February 4th, 2009, 12:28 PM
Pat,
I'm only talking about the signed 50" ORV "trails". From what I have understood, the ORV system negates the 4wd clause. True or not?

ORV Routes over-ride the Forest Road definition.

If a full sized vehicle wishes to traverse an 'ORV Trail', it needs to be:

1) Wide enough

-AND-

2) Passable by a 2WD

-AND-

3) NOT officially closed to full-sized use (The NFS is VERY diligent about restricting use when they designate orv trails, the State less so)

If it meets those criteria, then it would qualify for Forest Road status (and also be designated as an ORV Trail so that non-SOS, <50" vehicles can use it too).

If you're over 50" wide, then the scramble areas, NFS Maintenance Level 2 Road system, and ORV Routes are the only places you're allowed to use 4WD.

kb8ymf
February 4th, 2009, 12:57 PM
ORV Routes over-ride the Forest Road definition.

If a full sized vehicle wishes to traverse an 'ORV Trail', it needs to be:

1) Wide enough

-AND-

2) Passable by a 2WD

-AND-

3) NOT officially closed to full-sized use (The NFS is VERY diligent about restricting use when they designate orv trails, the State less so)

If it meets those criteria, then it would qualify for Forest Road status (and also be designated as an ORV Trail so that non-SOS, <50" vehicles can use it too).

If you're over 50" wide, then the scramble areas, NFS Maintenance Level 2 Road system, and ORV Routes are the only places you're allowed to use 4WD.

Since when? Where did these new definitions get created @ If it's got an orange marker and I fit, I can be there in any form of vehicle drive mechanism, 2WD, 3WD, or 4WD or 6WD. This sounds like somebody making up **** as they go along.
j-kb8ymf

Trail_Fanatic
February 4th, 2009, 02:17 PM
Since when? Where did these new definitions get created @ If it's got an orange marker and I fit, I can be there in any form of vehicle drive mechanism, 2WD, 3WD, or 4WD or 6WD. This sounds like somebody making up **** as they go along.
j-kb8ymf

But we're not in this forum to talk about 3 or 6 wheeled vehicles.
I'm merely trying to help folks avoid a citation by reiterating what Eastern UP LED has stated as their position.

If you have a different interpretation than LED, we should take it up in another thread.

kb8ymf
February 4th, 2009, 02:21 PM
Only if you can do so in grandma's Buick.

That was the problem with the 'trails' on Drummond.
Most were no longer passable by a 2WD car and therefore LED said they didn't qualify as Forest Roads. Personally, I would have liked to see it argued that they were Forest Roads until officially rescinded by the Department, but then we would have run the risk of having them officially closed. Route designation had the lowest risk to the sport.

This is the exact problem we started with on D.I. years ago. People getting tickets and then not contesting them in court. If the department continues to let maintanance responsibilities slack off, every road in the forest will soon be off limits. Somewhere this has to stop.
Full size 4Wd vehicle were around a 'few' years before any of the ATV, dirt bikes roaming the State lands. We were legal because we had SOS plate and insurance on our vehicles. It wasn't until the not licensed vehicle got into the act that we needed to post signs allowing non licensed and insured vehicle to be there. How soon everyone forgets how it used to be before ORV permits.
j-kb8ymf

kb8ymf
February 4th, 2009, 02:23 PM
But we're not in this forum to talk about 3 or 6 wheeled vehicles.
I'm merely trying to help folks avoid a citation by reiterating what Eastern UP LED has stated as their position.

If you have a different interpretation than LED, we should take it up in another thread.

There are spots in West Branch on a big wide road that are marked as ORV Trail....You're telling me I can't be there.
j

Ridgerunner
February 4th, 2009, 02:25 PM
Since when? Where did these new definitions get created @ If it's got an orange marker and I fit, I can be there in any form of vehicle drive mechanism, 2WD, 3WD, or 4WD or 6WD. This sounds like somebody making up **** as they go along.
j-kb8ymf

Thats what I believed what the rule was, If I have an ORV sticker and can fit, I can be there. Kinda like the route we ran at snofari. I have run many tight twisty quad trails on drummond in the past and was wondering if a compromise was made in establishing the new 4wd route.

Trail_Fanatic
February 4th, 2009, 04:09 PM
There are spots in West Branch on a big wide road that are marked as ORV Trail....You're telling me I can't be there.
j


A "big wide road" would qualify for Forest Road (if it wasn't already CRC).

Trail_Fanatic
February 4th, 2009, 04:24 PM
Here's what we received from the Department:

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s286/Trail_Fanatic_2007/ORVRouteClarificationPg1.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s286/Trail_Fanatic_2007/ORVRouteClarification.jpg

Please notice (f).
It's an exact quote from Part 811 of Act 451.
If you would like to see this changed, we would love to hear suggestions here:
http://www.glfwda.org/showthread.php?p=43127#post43127

Creative Fab
February 4th, 2009, 04:29 PM
I have been told by LEO's that if I have an ORV sticker and can fit down the trail I can use it. That is the problem with the "motorcycle only" 24" or less designtion on the Tommahawk trail in Wolverine, the CCC thinks that they are the only ones who can use sections of it even though it has been used for years by quads and has beed widely considered a 50" trail.

They got a sympethetic ear somewhere that issued an immediate closure to ATV's on two sections of it. Called it a directors order for crying out loud. I have since ridden it and will continue to do so with my ATV.

So I guess once again it comes down to "who" you talk to. Anybody care to bring this one up at the meeting tonight? I would but I have to work late today.

WhiteRhino
February 4th, 2009, 04:54 PM
So I see the specifics of a "trail" being 50" or less. I don't see where it allows 4wd use on a "route".

phazer42
February 4th, 2009, 09:58 PM
I have been told by LEO's that if I have an ORV sticker and can fit down the trail I can use it. That is the problem with the "motorcycle only" 24" or less designtion on the Tommahawk trail in Wolverine, the CCC thinks that they are the only ones who can use sections of it even though it has been used for years by quads and has beed widely considered a 50" trail.

They got a sympethetic ear somewhere that issued an immediate closure to ATV's on two sections of it. Called it a directors order for crying out loud. I have since ridden it and will continue to do so with my ATV.

So I guess once again it comes down to "who" you talk to. Anybody care to bring this one up at the meeting tonight? I would but I have to work late today.

I know for a fact that I fit down most of that trail system there in Wolverine.... I am 6'3 with a wingspan (finger to finger of around 76"s.... I cannot touch eaither side of the trail with my arms out, in most, if not all of the trail that I have been down.... it has MCCT trail markers, so my asumption is that I am not legal, but yet the contention would be that its not labeled correctly due to its width....

joe_jeep
February 5th, 2009, 05:32 PM
on a side note. i see all the snowmobilers use the mcct trails in the winter. i was under the impression it was not legal, but i could be wrong?

BlueJay
February 8th, 2009, 07:43 PM
Even if there were some comprimises, it is still great news! Thanks to those who put in the hard work!! Just reserved the last room at the Bear Track In. Looking foward to it.:thumb:

joe_jeep
February 8th, 2009, 07:54 PM
Even if there were some comprimises, it is still great news! Thanks to those who put in the hard work!! Just reserved the last room at the Bear Track In. Looking foward to it.:thumb:

breakfast at their resturant is hard to beat!

Trail_Fanatic
February 9th, 2009, 01:05 AM
Looks like I'll have company at the BT!
I made my reservation the night we found out it was approved.

:thumb:

See you there.
:woot:

BlueJay
February 10th, 2009, 08:48 PM
My wife and i will be arriving at the BT sometime Friday. Is there a need for any type of volunteers for the weekend? We want to see the trail but would be willing to help out somewhere if needed.

yj_hank
February 10th, 2009, 10:41 PM
I have made reservations. I am heading up on thursday afternoon and will be leaving saturday after the work is done. Is there anything we can bring up to help? Any tools needed? Looking forward to it.

Henry :wave:

Greenway
February 10th, 2009, 10:47 PM
BlueJay, Of course we can use your help. The more, the merrier.I'll be staying at the Bear Track Inn too. See ya Friday.

Trail_Fanatic
February 10th, 2009, 11:41 PM
I have been told by LEO's that if I have an ORV sticker and can fit down the trail I can use it. That is the problem with the "motorcycle only" 24" or less designation on the Tommahawk trail in Wolverine, the CCC thinks that they are the only ones who can use sections of it even though it has been used for years by quads and has been widely considered a 50" trail.

They got a sympathetic ear somewhere that issued an immediate closure to ATV's on two sections of it. Called it a directors order for crying out loud. I have since ridden it and will continue to do so with my ATV.

So I guess once again it comes down to "who" you talk to. Anybody care to bring this one up at the meeting tonight? I would but I have to work late today.

Sorry Pat. It didn't get brought up at the meeting.
If we (GLFWDA) want clarification, I'd rather see us do it in writing so that we can keep the response on file for future reference.

Unfortunately, the DNR had been granted the legal authority to create any rules for ORV use they see fit as long as they're not already enumerated in Part 811 of Act 451.

NATURAL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION ACT (EXCERPT)
Act 451 of 1994
Sec. 81124.
If the department finds that rules are necessary to implement the regulatory provisions of this part or to clarify the intent of this part, the department shall promulgate rules.

Director's Orders would theoretically be easier to get changed than legislation since there are a couple of levels of government between the DNR and the Legislature. Each level providing an additional opportunity to try to seek relief. Those levels being the Natural Resources Commission above the DNR and the Governor above the NRC. I consider the Legislature to be parallel to slightly above the Governor depending on how many votes an issue can raise due to their ability to override a veto.

Actually, if the Director's Order establishing 24" Trail stands up when challenged, GLFWDA could use the same principal to try and get a Director's Order establishing 4x4 Routes that would limit use to our class vehicle. I'm a big fan of multiple use/multiple enjoyment and wouldn't want to push for a ton of routes of that type, but it could be used in situations where combined use would prove dangerous or otherwise detrimental to our cause.


I know for a fact that I fit down most of that trail system there in Wolverine.... I am 6'3 with a wingspan (finger to finger of around 76"s.... I cannot touch either side of the trail with my arms out, in most, if not all of the trail that I have been down.... it has MCCT trail markers, so my assumption is that I am not legal, but yet the contention would be that its not labeled correctly due to its width....

Does this area require the use of 4WD or is it 2wd?

In your scenario:

If it were too narrow for a full sized vehicle, it would be a trail - not a road or route that also happens to be signed as part of the "Trail" system.
If it were wide enough for a full sized vehicle AND 2wd, it would be a Forest Road (that also happened to be signed as trail to allow non-SOS ATVs access to other segments of the system that truly meet the definition of trail).
If your scenario is wide enough for a full sized vehicle AND 4wd. It's not 2wd , so it fails to be a forest road. It's not too narrow for a full sized vehicle, so it fails to be a Forest Trail. It is not designated as Route, so it fails to meet that definition too. The path you describe would NOT be a "Forest Road", "Forest Trail" or a designated "Route" because it fails to meet any of those definitions.
I say that based on the following from Part 811, Act 451 of 1994:

(e) "Forest road" means a hard surfaced road, gravel or dirt road, or other route capable of travel by a 2-wheel drive, 4-wheel conventional vehicle designed for highway use, except an interstate, state, or county highway.

(f) "Forest trail" means a designated path or way capable of travel only by a vehicle less than 50 inches in width.

(t) "Route" means a forest road or other road that is designated for purposes of this part by the department.

There is currently NO classification for the type of path you describe. In my mind, it's the SAME dilemma as when the "ORV Trail" designation is not present. For us to be "allowed", it must either be a Forest Road or a designated Route.

Those are the only legally supported >50" motorized ORV forms currently allowed in 811.

If a path fails to meet the current criteria, the Department LEO's are interpreting that to be "illegal cross-country travel" because you're not on a legally defined path (the NFS will enforce the Motor Vehicle Use Maps the same way - on the map = OK, not on the map = illegal cross country travel, even if the road has been "on the ground" for 100+ years).

Could a good attorney push the issue and win?
Maybe (And I would certainly hope so), but neither I, nor GLFWDA, can afford to be the one to pay the $$ to find out. That's why we're trying to get a tax deductable Land Action Fund started. Someday maybe we will have the funding to push some of these issues in court.

What I AM willing to do, is work to try and get Part 811 revised to include a MUCH better breakdown of the classifications of ORV types AND the classifications of the road/trail types. My suggestions would include something similar to:

"Primitive Road - A linear route used by four wheel drive or high clearance vehicles. Primitive Roads do not normally meet any road design standards."

That [minus what's in brackets] is a definition the BLM adopted in 2006.
Recently enough to still be relevant.

I'll just drop BLM out of the definition and submit it with my other suggestions.

That will leave Forest Road defined as it is, but create a new class.


Interesting points that deserve their own thread.
I feel like a muslim extremest on an airliner . . .
a highjacker (ba dum bum).



[B]In relation to this thread and the new Drummond Island ORV Route though, I'd have to openly plead that enthusiasts don't press this issue on the Island at this time. If anyone really wanted to pursue it on the ground please, please, please do it in the LP, or the mainland UP.

I would be afraid that those who opposed the creation of the Route would use any opportunity possible to stir up trouble or even possibly try to get it rescinded. We can't afford that this early.

Actually, some of us are hoping that things will go so well that we will be able to successfully petition for additional trail/obstacles once the project has become old news and dropped off our adversary's radar (remember the clay pits?).

Trail_Fanatic
February 11th, 2009, 12:01 AM
My wife and i will be arriving at the BT sometime Friday. Is there a need for any type of volunteers for the weekend? We want to see the trail but would be willing to help out somewhere if needed.


I have made reservations. I am heading up on Thursday afternoon and will be leaving Saturday after the work is done. Is there anything we can bring up to help? Any tools needed? Looking forward to it.

Henry :wave:


It'll be great o see you guys. :thumb:

If you can, bring claw hammers and leather work gloves.
This should only involve putting up new Route confidence markers.
I'd say a post-hole digger too, but they don't work through rock. :lmao:

WhiteRhino
February 11th, 2009, 07:09 AM
Well written Pat. When do you hope to submit something?

DieselMTU
February 11th, 2009, 10:17 AM
Booked and ready to go. See everyone up there.



Can't wait to get back to the island. I hope it does not rain all weekend like the last time I was up there.

timbercruiser
February 11th, 2009, 12:16 PM
This is great news!!


I have two questions: Do we need ORV stickers (since it's an "ORV route")?

and are we (as a group, not individually) allowed to "modify" the trail (move rocks, make log obstacles etc..)?


I'll try to be up there on Saturday. Where are we meeting? What time?

Trail_Fanatic
February 11th, 2009, 09:01 PM
Well written Pat. When do you hope to submit something?

If all goes as planned, by the 21st.


This is great news!!


I have two questions: Do we need ORV stickers (since it's an "ORV route")?

and are we (as a group, not individually) allowed to "modify" the trail (move rocks, make log obstacles etc..)?


I'll try to be up there on Saturday. Where are we meeting? What time?

1) Stickers - Yes.
Relatively little of this Route is Forest Road (although if you wanted to keep to 2wd, you wouldn't need the sticker). This Route has 29 miles that require a high clearance vehicle, 17ish of which are designated to be 4wd and over 6 miles of the system will be designed to challenge more than a stock vehicles. :thumb:

2) We'd like to keep this outing to just signage.

3) The final details are still being worked out. The info will probably take a few more weeks to get together for release. Keep an eye out for it.

timbercruiser
February 12th, 2009, 07:38 PM
If all goes as planned, by the 21st.



1) Stickers - Yes.
Relatively little of this Route is Forest Road (although if you wanted to keep to 2wd, you wouldn't need the sticker). This Route has 29 miles that require a high clearance vehicle, 17ish of which are designated to be 4wd and over 6 miles of the system will be designed to challenge more than a stock vehicles. :thumb:

2) We'd like to keep this outing to just signage.

3) The final details are still being worked out. The info will probably take a few more weeks to get together for release. Keep an eye out for it.

The modify question wasn't meant for the weekend. It's in regards to the future.

T-way
February 14th, 2009, 01:08 AM
will make every effort possible to get up there for this!! Maybe even bring a few of the Trolls with me!! (If I can track down my radiator leak by then).

:thumb:

Also - a big THANK YOU to everyone who had a hand in seeing this to fruition!!

:yourock:

PeteC
February 16th, 2009, 05:59 PM
If all goes as planned, by the 21st.



1) Stickers - Yes.
Relatively little of this Route is Forest Road (although if you wanted to keep to 2wd, you wouldn't need the sticker). This Route has 29 miles that require a high clearance vehicle, 17ish of which are designated to be 4wd and over 6 miles of the system will be designed to challenge more than a stock vehicles. :thumb:

.......................................


OK, I am confused here. We have not needed an ORV sticker on an ORV Route before if our vehicle is SOS licensed. Have I been wrong about this or has something changed?

p.s. I would have an ORV sticker on my Jeep regardless.

Trail_Fanatic
February 16th, 2009, 08:19 PM
The modify question wasn't meant for the weekend. It's in regards to the future.

Good question.
I'd have to ask the Dept. for a sure answer, but would imagine that it would depend on the scope of the project.


OK, I am confused here. We have not needed an ORV sticker on an ORV Route before if our vehicle is SOS licensed. Have I been wrong about this or has something changed?

p.s. I would have an ORV sticker on my Jeep regardless.

NATURAL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION ACT (EXCERPT)
Act 451 of 1994

324.81102 Vehicles exempt from licensure provisions.

Sec. 81102.
(1) A vehicle registered under the code or a vehicle registered under part 801 is exempt from the licensure provisions of this part, unless the vehicle is operated as an ORV off highways, roadways, streets, and forest roads.

************************************************** *****
I added the red for emphasis.

An ORV Route that is passable by a 2WD car is considered a Forest Road and we are therefore exempt.

HOWEVER

An ORV Route (or portion of) that needs 4WD does not meet the definition of Forest Road and we are, by default, acting as an ORV and thereby subject to the sticker requirement.

PeteC
February 17th, 2009, 10:30 AM
Good question.
I'd have to ask the Dept. for a sure answer, but would imagine that it would depend on the scope of the project.



NATURAL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION ACT (EXCERPT)
Act 451 of 1994

324.81102 Vehicles exempt from licensure provisions.

Sec. 81102.
(1) A vehicle registered under the code or a vehicle registered under part 801 is exempt from the licensure provisions of this part, unless the vehicle is operated as an ORV off highways, roadways, streets, and forest roads.

************************************************** *****
I added the red for emphasis.

An ORV Route that is passable by a 2WD car is considered a Forest Road and we are therefore exempt.

HOWEVER

An ORV Route (or portion of) that needs 4WD does not meet the definition of Forest Road and we are, by default, acting as an ORV and thereby subject to the sticker requirement.


No wonder there is so much confusion then. Drive on an ORV route legally, go a little further and you are illegal, even though there is no signage change.

Just rambling, not arguing.

jeepfreak81
February 17th, 2009, 12:08 PM
Sorry Pat. It didn't get brought up at the meeting.
If we (GLFWDA) want clarification, I'd rather see us do it in writing so that we can keep the response on file for future reference.

Unfortunately, the DNR had been granted the legal authority to create any rules for ORV use they see fit as long as they're not already enumerated in Part 811 of Act 451.

NATURAL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION ACT (EXCERPT)
Act 451 of 1994
Sec. 81124.
If the department finds that rules are necessary to implement the regulatory provisions of this part or to clarify the intent of this part, the department shall promulgate rules.

Director's Orders would theoretically be easier to get changed than legislation since there are a couple of levels of government between the DNR and the Legislature. Each level providing an additional opportunity to try to seek relief. Those levels being the Natural Resources Commission above the DNR and the Governor above the NRC. I consider the Legislature to be parallel to slightly above the Governor depending on how many votes an issue can raise due to their ability to override a veto.

Actually, if the Director's Order establishing 24" Trail stands up when challenged, GLFWDA could use the same principal to try and get a Director's Order establishing 4x4 Routes that would limit use to our class vehicle. I'm a big fan of multiple use/multiple enjoyment and wouldn't want to push for a ton of routes of that type, but it could be used in situations where combined use would prove dangerous or otherwise detrimental to our cause.



Does this area require the use of 4WD or is it 2wd?

In your scenario:

If it were too narrow for a full sized vehicle, it would be a trail - not a road or route that also happens to be signed as part of the "Trail" system.
If it were wide enough for a full sized vehicle AND 2wd, it would be a Forest Road (that also happened to be signed as trail to allow non-SOS ATVs access to other segments of the system that truly meet the definition of trail).
If your scenario is wide enough for a full sized vehicle AND 4wd. It's not 2wd , so it fails to be a forest road. It's not too narrow for a full sized vehicle, so it fails to be a Forest Trail. It is not designated as Route, so it fails to meet that definition too. The path you describe would NOT be a "Forest Road", "Forest Trail" or a designated "Route" because it fails to meet any of those definitions.

I say that based on the following from Part 811, Act 451 of 1994:

(e) "Forest road" means a hard surfaced road, gravel or dirt road, or other route capable of travel by a 2-wheel drive, 4-wheel conventional vehicle designed for highway use, except an interstate, state, or county highway.

(f) "Forest trail" means a designated path or waycapable of travel only by a vehicle less than 50 inches in width.

(t) "Route" means a forest road or other road that is designated for purposes of this part by the department.

There is currently NO classification for the type of path you describe. In my mind, it's the SAME dilemma as when the "ORV Trail" designation is not present. For us to be "allowed", it must either be a Forest Road or a designated Route.

Those are the only legally supported >50" motorized ORV forms currently allowed in 811.

If a path fails to meet the current criteria, the Department LEO's are interpreting that to be "illegal cross-country travel" because you're not on a legally defined path (the NFS will enforce the Motor Vehicle Use Maps the same way - on the map = OK, not on the map = illegal cross country travel, even if the road has been "on the ground" for 100+ years).

Could a good attorney push the issue and win?
Maybe (And I would certainly hope so), but neither I, nor GLFWDA, can afford to be the one to pay the $$ to find out. That's why we're trying to get a tax deductable Land Action Fund started. Someday maybe we will have the funding to push some of these issues in court.

What I AM willing to do, is work to try and get Part 811 revised to include a MUCH better breakdown of the classifications of ORV types AND the classifications of the road/trail types. My suggestions would include something similar to:

"Primitive Road - A linear route used by four wheel drive or high clearance vehicles. Primitive Roads do not normally meet any road design standards."

That [minus what's in brackets] is a definition the BLM adopted in 2006.
Recently enough to still be relevant.

I'll just drop BLM out of the definition and submit it with my other suggestions.

That will leave Forest Road defined as it is, but create a new class.


Interesting points that deserve their own thread.
I feel like a muslim extremest on an airliner . . .
a highjacker (ba dum bum).



[B]In relation to this thread and the new Drummond Island ORV Route though, I'd have to openly plead that enthusiasts don't press this issue on the Island at this time. If anyone really wanted to pursue it on the ground please, please, please do it in the LP, or the mainland UP.

I would be afraid that those who opposed the creation of the Route would use any opportunity possible to stir up trouble or even possibly try to get it rescinded. We can't afford that this early.

Actually, some of us are hoping that things will go so well that we will be able to successfully petition for additional trail/obstacles once the project has become old news and dropped off our adversary's radar (remember the clay pits?).

Pat... you just opened a can of worms for me. The following link is to the Huron Trail, - Sand Lake Spur. It is less then 2 miles from my parents property. I have spent some time on the trail with my dirtbike in years past, and you can take it all the way to Oscoda. I HAVE seen stock TJ's doing a large chunk of this trail while on my cycle. My flatty would probably fit down a very large portion, if not all of the trail, but I have not had a bike in probably 8-9 years. Only God knows how much I would like to show my wife these trails in the 2A.

According to the map - it would be ORV's less then 50" only. According to what is on the ground - I can easily fit my jeep down these trails - especially the flatty. It easily describes what Phazer42 describes. Wouldn't it default to what the map says? I imagine the Wolverine Trail map probably says the same thing.

http://www.midnr.com/publications/pdfs/forestslandwater/ORV/Maps-Trail/Huron_Trail_Sand_Lake_Spur.pdf

I am assuming Phazer42 is talking about these trails... which the map labels as less then 50"

http://www.midnr.com/publications/pdfs/forestslandwater/ORV/Maps-Trail/Tomahawk_to_Red_Bridge.pdf


I don't know that I will have a rig ready for the Drummond thing but thank you to everyone that was involved!

Nvrenuf
February 17th, 2009, 08:30 PM
Pat... you just opened a can of worms for me. The following link is to the Huron Trail, - Sand Lake Spur. It is less then 2 miles from my parents property. I have spent some time on the trail with my dirtbike in years past, and you can take it all the way to Oscoda. I HAVE seen stock TJ's doing a large chunk of this trail while on my cycle. My flatty would probably fit down a very large portion, if not all of the trail, but I have not had a bike in probably 8-9 years. Only God knows how much I would like to show my wife these trails in the 2A.

According to the map - it would be ORV's less then 50" only. According to what is on the ground - I can easily fit my jeep down these trails - especially the flatty. It easily describes what Phazer42 describes. Wouldn't it default to what the map says? I imagine the Wolverine Trail map probably says the same thing.

http://www.midnr.com/publications/pdfs/forestslandwater/ORV/Maps-Trail/Huron_Trail_Sand_Lake_Spur.pdf

I am assuming Phazer42 is talking about these trails... which the map labels as less then 50"

http://www.midnr.com/publications/pdfs/forestslandwater/ORV/Maps-Trail/Tomahawk_to_Red_Bridge.pdf


I don't know that I will have a rig ready for the Drummond thing but thank you to everyone that was involved!


Jake

I have a cabin on the south side of Sand Lake. The Huron Trail is on USFS land. I don't know if that makes a difference. That trail is really wide and flat now. It is specifically signed no full size which is OK with me. There is no scenic value but a nice wide trail for ATVs. The areas that were nice have long been closed.

Steve

jeepfreak81
February 17th, 2009, 08:39 PM
Jake

I have a cabin on the south side of Sand Lake. The Huron Trail is on USFS land. I don't know if that makes a difference. That trail is really wide and flat now. It is specifically signed no full size which is OK with me. There is no scenic value but a nice wide trail for ATVs. The areas that were nice have long been closed.

Steve


Good to know, I don't recall those signs being there when I used to ride that spur. I do know the trail head has had a lot of improvements since then.

Trail_Fanatic
February 17th, 2009, 11:32 PM
The Huron Trail is on USFS land. I don't know if that makes a difference. It is specifically signed no full size.

It makes ALL the difference in the world.
The Feds are almost religious in their 'separation of use' convictions.
They are meticulous about officially rescinding the right of other vehicle types to be on a travel way that they designate as ATV Trail.

The State is much less so.



Jake,
If this hadn't ended up being Federal . . .

Were you maybe inadvertently trying to apply the "Forest Trail" definition to an "ORV Trail" that had been designated to allow less than fifty inch wide ORVs to use a portion of travel way that ALSO meets the definition of, and therefore also is, a Forest Road?

A Forest Trail is a path 50" or less wide capable of (But not necessarily designated for) travel only by vehicles <50" wide.

An ATV Trail is a designation that allows 50" vehicle to use that travel-way. That travel-way might be a Forest Road, a Forest Trail, or some other form of path that isn't defined in the current Code.

I was hoping that last post would have helped clarify and "clamp the lid" rather than blowing it off.

Let me know how I can clarify further.
Spreading proper knowledge of our sport's rules is one of the missions of the Association.

T-way
February 18th, 2009, 12:01 AM
Wow......lots of good information in this thread regarding definitions, the need for ORV stickers, etc. Thanks to those who are in the know, and can act as a resource for the rest of us!!

:thumb:

After reading all of the legal-ese in this thread, the confusion is making me think that it might be easier to sell the Jeep and stick with my hiking boots!!!!

:rolleyes:

That being said, I'm almost 100% sure that I'll be on the island on May 9 to help out!!!

MrsRedRuby
February 22nd, 2009, 05:09 PM
Anyone help a clueless tax guy?

Steve and I stay at Wa Wen and last year they were expanding their rv spots when we attended the Jeep Jamboree in June. We will be staying their in our motorhome when we come.

MrsRedRuby
February 22nd, 2009, 05:12 PM
We are putting it on our map and hope to come help out. We feel helping the group will only help us in the long run. Plus you guys are so much fun to be around.............:wave:

phittie1100
February 23rd, 2009, 01:11 AM
Steve and I stay at Wa Wen and last year they were expanding their rv spots when we attended the Jeep Jamboree in June. We will be staying their in our motorhome when we come.


Thanks!

trailnurse
February 24th, 2009, 05:22 PM
I know first hand how hard you all worked to make this happen and am so very happy that you did!! Thanks for all your hard work and efforts to get this thing pushed through so that WE ALL can go ROCK up on the ROCK!!! :yourock:

Mudgoer
March 8th, 2009, 05:25 PM
Congratulations and a big thanks to all those fighters for open 4x4 trails.:woot:

sodapop
March 26th, 2009, 06:00 PM
Awesome, It's good to hear that things are moving in a positive direction. I know I (and many others) were disappointed by the whole drummond/marble head DNR issue a while back.

drummond
March 31st, 2009, 10:49 PM
ill be there the weekend of the 9th to help out as well. :wave:

Thanks to everyone to put forth all the hard work to make this happen. I truly think this is a very positive step towards legal four-wheeling in Michigan. It really is nice to hear something positive once in a while, with all the news of parks closing down throughout the rest of the country.

Trail_Fanatic
April 4th, 2009, 12:22 PM
Itinerary
Meet at the Bear Track Inn at 8:30 where trail signing tasks and instructions will be assigned (Bear Track opens at 7:00 AM for breakfast).

Once assigned to a work group and area proceed to the designated portion of the trail.

Perform trail signing work assignments until 4:00 PM.

Check back in at Bear Track to report how much trail was signed and any trail issues.

'Chuck's Place' will be having a dinner special on Saturday night.

Volunteers should note the following:
- Appropriate clothing and work gear (gloves, boots, etc.)
- Carpenter claw hammer
- Insect repellent, sun screen, etc.
- Food and beverage for the day (NO alcoholic beverages on trails)
- ORV license (sticker) for vehicles
- This is not a 'trail maintenance' work day. NO power tools are to be used by any of the volunteers for this trail signing activity. Light trimming with hand tools is appropriate where necessary.

Rattler
April 4th, 2009, 12:28 PM
Insect repellent, sun screen, etc.

I will grab several cans of Off from the company store if I think of it beforehad.

Trail_Fanatic
April 4th, 2009, 05:28 PM
I will grab several cans of Off from the company store if I think of it before had.

Cool!

I'm just the type of idiot to forget it!

:banghead:

signman
April 5th, 2009, 04:54 PM
Sorry I have not read this thred till now, [B]FIRST, JUST BECAUSE THERE IS AN ORV TRAIL ON A FRST RD OR COUNTY RD IT IS NOT CLOSED TO SOS VEHICLES, common sense must pevail a bit,if your rubbing trees not limbs and it doesn,t look like an over grown rd then its a trail, most common thing that happens is that a trail jumps on a frst rd for a portion to get over a wet spot then jumps back in the woods, so driving along and you all of a sudden see trail makers mean that you are ok, there should have been a mixed traffic sign that you would see(how good is that sign guy), if you start down a narrow trail with a stop sign and trail markers then it was built as a trail, that beeing said there are gray area, we need to mark these on a map and see if we can mark them better, Saint Helen has some of these, We need to get Paige out there and show her these and get some answers, I,m working on that this spring. Last but not least is what you or I think or the CO says, it will come down to a Judge and Jury, can you convince 12 random people that it is a frst rd, Hope this helps.

signman
April 5th, 2009, 05:11 PM
On the frst rds/orv route issue Steve K. has said and many meetings that all ORV Routes are on frst rds, That would mean that an SOS plate is all you need. What I have said and try to get in at every chance I can, Is that there is nothing in the law that says a route has to be a frst rd, (it says other rds also), the dept policy has been routes must be frst rds, DRUMMOND May make the case for this, let this settle for a bit and it will become a good point to use. Frst cert and the greenies want to the dept to live up to a two wheel drive frst rd/orv route standard. I (WE) need to prove that wrong, Drummond can help along with other area,s. Just like lots of other things it takes time and persistence but it can get done.

Trail_Fanatic
April 5th, 2009, 10:48 PM
On the forest Rd's/orv route issue Steve K. has said and many meetings that all ORV Routes are on forest Rd's, That would mean that an SOS plate is all you need. What I have said and try to get in at every chance I can, Is that there is nothing in the law that says a route has to be a forest rd, (it says other Rd's also), the dept policy has been routes must be forest Rd's, DRUMMOND May make the case for this, let this settle for a bit and it will become a good point to use. Forest cert and the greenies want to the dept to live up to a two wheel drive forest rd/orv route standard. I (WE) need to prove that wrong, Drummond can help along with other area,s. Just like lots of other things it takes time and persistence but it can get done.

This issue did need to be revisited by the Department before Drummond could be designated. Thankfully, it went our way. Here's the result if anyone wants a copy for their file:

Trail_Fanatic
April 15th, 2009, 11:07 PM
I have updated the list of lodging available to more accurately reflect those who have supported our efforts so diligently.

Please thank them with your patronage.

joe_jeep
April 16th, 2009, 05:25 PM
I have updated the list of lodging available to more accurately reflect those who have supported our efforts so diligently.

Please thank them with your patronage.

what if anything was changed in the new route? im assuming the clay pits is still off limits? did they fill in any of the holes? any dozer work done to the trail? log jam still open? anything closed we used?
thx

Jarhead
April 17th, 2009, 08:21 AM
what if anything was changed in the new route? Routes were added that we had not previously used (unless an event pulled the permission). im assuming the clay pits is still off limits? Currently. did they fill in any of the holes? Yes, the big skidder hole East of Corn Beef Junction. any dozer work dont to the trail? There are three phases of Route Designations. Dependant on given route, some will have to meet forest certification standards, others will be allowed to let mother nature do her stuff without interference from man. log jam still open? Yes (Major Issue). anything closed we used? The very top of Marblehead where we once parked (Steps are Open).
thx

drummond
April 18th, 2009, 07:28 PM
what do you mean that the log jam is a "major issue"?

Jarhead
April 18th, 2009, 09:20 PM
what do you mean that the log jam is a "major issue"?
Was a major issue. Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse the issue.

joe_jeep
April 18th, 2009, 09:42 PM
thats about what i expected. it sure could have been worse. anything they try to fix with a dozer will be back the way it was fairly quickly i bet.
when drummond is wet its kinda fun, if its dry its really not. filling in all the wet spots would be a bummer.
thx!:thumb:

Evil Queen
April 20th, 2009, 04:04 PM
great job guys, thanks for the hard work!

jeep4life
June 15th, 2009, 12:22 AM
I was up at drummond this weekend and noticed one of the guys in ur club had a jk with a rear tire carrier/stinger and I was wondering if any of you knew him I wanted to figure out if he custom fabbed that or bought it....thanks :poke:

joe_jeep
June 15th, 2009, 07:02 PM
I was up at drummond this weekend and noticed one of the guys in ur club had a jk with a rear tire carrier/stinger and I was wondering if any of you knew him I wanted to figure out if he custom fabbed that or bought it....thanks :poke:

if the jk was red i bet it was oz97tj. hes the vice president of GLFWDA.
look for that name under the members list or email vicepresident@glfwda.org.
im sure he will chime in here soon.

oz97tj
June 15th, 2009, 08:29 PM
I was up at drummond this weekend and noticed one of the guys in ur club had a jk with a rear tire carrier/stinger and I was wondering if any of you knew him I wanted to figure out if he custom fabbed that or bought it....thanks :poke:

I know that guy. He's a jerk...

http://finishlinewest.com/rear_bumper.htm

The owner, Andy, is always on jkowners.com. I actually got the very first one. It was the prototype on his rig. He came to Walled Lake to AEV for a Hemi installer class and was supposed to bring me one. Long story short, he didn't, so he pulled the one from his rig and sold it to me for a great price. Really great guy and I'm super happy with the bumper. No rattles at all.

Also, the front bumper was built by a local guy named "Tab". I think he is on here, but he is on greatlakes4x4.com all the time. Just search "Tab" in members. I don't know where your located, but if you want to look at it in more detail let me know.

jeep4life
June 15th, 2009, 10:05 PM
Yeah I checked out that rear bumper love it but cant fork out that $500 lol...thanks for the prompt response though

oz97tj
June 16th, 2009, 10:03 AM
Yeah I checked out that rear bumper love it but cant fork out that $500 lol...thanks for the prompt response though

Yeah, I know how that goes. Then again, most bumper tire carriers are in the 800 and above range, so how can you afford not to? lol

jeep4life
June 16th, 2009, 02:46 PM
Yeah, I know how that goes. Then again, most bumper tire carriers are in the 800 and above range, so how can you afford not to? lol

Eh being unemployed and just coming out of college I can barely afford my ORV habits...but taking the mods one at a time...Still want CB, Rock Rails, and eventually a new rear bumper with a trailer hitch....Once I find a job i figure ill be broke again lol..."JEEP"= Just Empty Every Pocket....lol :thumb:

TMS
August 11th, 2009, 12:56 PM
Hi everyone. This is my first post on this site.

I'm heading up to Drummond Island for my first time August 27-30th with my two young sons and 3 other guys with Jeeps. I've been searching everywhere for an updated map of the ORV Route and haven't found one. The closest I found was earlier in this thread when someone posted a map of the proposed route. It was stated that a map would be available soon. Does anyone know where I can find a map?

Thank you

Rattler
August 11th, 2009, 01:56 PM
Hi everyone. This is my first post on this site.

I'm heading up to Drummond Island for my first time August 27-30th with my two young sons and 3 other guys with Jeeps. I've been searching everywhere for an updated map of the ORV Route and haven't found one. The closest I found was earlier in this thread when someone posted a map of the proposed route. It was stated that a map would be available soon. Does anyone know where I can find a map?

Thank you

When you get to the island, go to the Bear Track Inn and talk to Steve Walker. He is the trail guru on the island. He has maps he sells (pretty much what you saw) and can tell you the latest trail conditions too probably.

I have a GPS file of all the routes that were remarked on the island too. Its the same one that a few have posted on the 'net since May when it was done. I can't seem to find a link to it now of course. PM me an email addy if you want me to send it to you.

Jarhead
August 12th, 2009, 08:52 AM
Like Rattler says, the map produced by the Drummond Island Tourism Association (DITA) is an excellent map and available all over the Island for a few bucks.

TMS
August 12th, 2009, 01:43 PM
Thanks for the map information.

srlbotanical
August 13th, 2009, 11:40 AM
Hi everyone. This is my first post on this site.

I'm heading up to Drummond Island for my first time August 27-30th with my two young sons and 3 other guys with Jeeps. I've been searching everywhere for an updated map of the ORV Route and haven't found one. The closest I found was earlier in this thread when someone posted a map of the proposed route. It was stated that a map would be available soon. Does anyone know where I can find a map?

Thank you

My son and I went up with the two-trackers in early June. What a fantastic place to wheel. It's absolutly beautiful. I wish we would have had time to spent an extra day at turtle ridge. We pre-ran one day, had the offical run the following day, and then spent a day at TR. I'd lake to go back again this fall. It was truely a wonderful place to clear your head.

Steve

TMS
August 14th, 2009, 10:15 PM
I just got my new BFG KM2 tires a couple of days ago and today I bought a Go Pro Motorsports Hero video camera to mount to my Jeep. I'm hoping to have fun with both.

I was wondering how the ORV Route compares to Turtle Ridge? Other than a lift to fit the 33s, my Jeep is basically stock. I'm installing JKS discos before I go, but that's it. No lockers or winch for me. 3 other Jeeps are going, a CJ7 on 35s, a stock YJ, and a TJ Rubicon. I'm planning on some challenging trails and getting stuck a few times.

phittie1100
August 14th, 2009, 10:39 PM
I just got my new BFG KM2 tires a couple of days ago and today I bought a Go Pro Motorsports Hero video camera to mount to my Jeep. I'm hoping to have fun with both.

I was wondering how the ORV Route compares to Turtle Ridge? Other than a lift to fit the 33s, my Jeep is basically stock. I'm installing JKS discos before I go, but that's it. No lockers or winch for me. 3 other Jeeps are going, a CJ7 on 35s, a stock YJ, and a TJ Rubicon. I'm planning on some challenging trails and getting stuck a few times.

You'll have a blast - my only trip to DI a couple of years ago was in my 93YJ on 31's. My clutch was a little more worn out when I was done, and I scraped most of the rust off of the underside that weekend, but a great trip.

timbercruiser
August 15th, 2009, 09:34 AM
you'll be fine!!!

Jarhead
August 15th, 2009, 10:22 AM
...I'm planning on some challenging trails and getting stuck a few times.

Don't worry, you are going to have a great time!

1965 pony
August 18th, 2009, 10:31 AM
I have had a number of 4x4's with my wife and we have not been out wheeling since we had kids, 4 years ago. We just went out to Silver Lake this past weekend, and everybody had a great time. I am just wondering what trails around Michigan are good for the family. Right now we have a 1978 Bronco, and a 1978 F150 SWB. I am wondering if there are any clubs close to me that organise family oriented 4x4 events and trail rides.

Right now the Bronco only has a 2inch front leveling kit, 33" BFG's, mild 400, NP205, C6. Hopefully when we get the wife something else to drive everday, we can modify the Bronco a wee bit more.

The 78 150 has a 1996 EFI 5.8 in it with 33" tires, Np205, C6. Both are fun and reliable.