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kb8ymf
July 22nd, 2008, 06:30 PM
Mounds Rock Crawl construction commences
Mounds Rock Crawl construction commences as soon as it dries out a bit. The contractor was there on Friday but it rained so much this weekend he may have to wait a bit before getting the big equipment out there.
But IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN!!!!

One additional clarification:
The Mound will continue there regulary scheduled hours. NO CLOSING ON SUNDAYS as was reported on 'some other unidentified' forums.

If anyone gets out there and see's the construction actually starting, please post it up.

jim-kb8ymf

rtikql8
July 22nd, 2008, 10:53 PM
That's great news!

Thanks for staying on top of it Jim! :thumb:

joe_jeep
July 23rd, 2008, 02:35 PM
great job jim!:thumb:

phittie1100
July 25th, 2008, 09:27 AM
We will have to take a swing through there Sunday after the quarterly and see if we can find any signs of activity.

timbercruiser
July 25th, 2008, 11:03 AM
YAHOO!!!!!:ahhh:

kb8ymf
July 25th, 2008, 11:20 AM
We will have to take a swing through there Sunday after the quarterly and see if we can find any signs of activity.

Word this morning is; the dozer is being brought on site and construction will be complete by October 1st!
I guess I'll believe it when I see it.
jim-kb8ymf

phittie1100
July 25th, 2008, 03:44 PM
Word this morning is; the dozer is being brought on site and construction will be complete by October 1st!
I guess I'll believe it when I see it.
jim-kb8ymf

We need to make an effort to have an organized get-together when they open

WhiteRhino
July 25th, 2008, 03:54 PM
We need to make an effort to have an organized get-together when they open
:thumb::thumb:

Brods
July 25th, 2008, 08:06 PM
Word this morning is; the dozer is being brought on site and construction will be complete by October 1st!
I guess I'll believe it when I see it.
jim-kb8ymf
Great news!:yourock: lol, pun intended.

Jim, on the GL4X4 board you estimated it could be 3 years for completion of everything. Is that for the courses outlined in the 99 page bid request ("Stock", "Modified Stock" and "Pro-Modified") or are there plans for additional courses?

Also the specís defining all the different sizes of rocks include this text: "....to consist of natural stone of varying types....". Is there any provision to deter the use of soft or easily fractured rock types? I have no idea of stone prices, but if soft, weak rocks are generally cheaper, they will be more attractive to the contractor building the courses.

Thanks for the updates and all your work to make this happen!

kb8ymf
July 26th, 2008, 01:16 PM
Great news!:yourock: lol, pun intended.

Jim, on the GL4X4 board you estimated it could be 3 years for completion of everything. Is that for the courses outlined in the 99 page bid request ("Stock", "Modified Stock" and "Pro-Modified") or are there plans for additional courses?

Also the specís defining all the different sizes of rocks include this text: "....to consist of natural stone of varying types....". Is there any provision to deter the use of soft or easily fractured rock types? I have no idea of stone prices, but if soft, weak rocks are generally cheaper, they will be more attractive to the contractor building the courses.

Thanks for the updates and all your work to make this happen!

Initial conversation (months ago) with the GCP&R indicated the project would be broken down and completed in three phases due to cost. So hence the 3 year comment from me. What I'm hearing now is that 'IT', what ever IT is, will be completed by October 1st. Is that the first phase? I think yes, but we'll have to wait and see. I don't believe the entire course can be built in 2 months. There were 9 course in the plan. As far as rocks go, their literally free, it's the transportation cost that are the $$$$. I'm not to worried about sub standard materials but will reserve comment until something starts to appear on site.
The RFP contained numerous styles of construction techniques. It's up to the contractor and GCP&R and the DNR to determine if the techniques are acceptable.That's where I start to have some heartburn. GCP&R have indicated to me that 'our' input was duly noted and further involvement from us is unnecessary. Just what happens when the course is completed remains a mystery. What will it look like? Will it meet our expectation? Will any shortcuts that might have been taken to reduce costs, be detrimental to the course and the longevity of the project.
Bottom line, those building the Rock Crawl don't know a thing about rock Crawls, and refuse to allow us to look over their shoulder. No one in the state of Michigan has ever built a rock course. Will it be a POS when it's done? As I said previously, I'll reserve my opinion until I see some results.
jim-kb8ymf

jeepfreak81
July 28th, 2008, 10:55 AM
They mowed the area and there is a Dozer there. No other action has happened though as of yesterday.

phittie1100
July 29th, 2008, 09:41 PM
I got lost trying to find the right spot, then got my pretty Jeep all dirty back in the woods trying to find my way out. Rule number one, don't follow me, I'm always lost at the Mounds. It's sooo big after all.....

T-way
July 29th, 2008, 10:29 PM
As Jim pointed out, it sounds like there are several unanswered questions regarding what this project will become once it's finished. It sure stinks that we can't be involved in the design!! :banghead:

Jim has literally put YEARS of due diligence into seeing this project come to fruition. Even though I have never been to the Mounds, I sincerely appreciate ALL of his work on this!!!

THANKS JIM!!!!

:thumb::yourock:

kb8ymf
July 30th, 2008, 05:49 PM
It sure stinks that we can't be involved in the design!! :banghead:


Actually to be truthful, we were literally 100% involved in the design, it's the 'execution' portion that we're not involved with. (Lets hope they can read blueprints!)
They used our Rock Crawl Design Guidelines as the basis for the entire facility.
jim-kb8ymf

JuggernautZJ
July 31st, 2008, 11:09 AM
sounds great! thanks jim and all who were involved!

lgottler
September 15th, 2008, 09:13 PM
So, are they building what we want, or what they want, or what they know we really meant when we told them what we wanted?

Do we have multiple 28" tired courses, or multiple courses to satisfy 28-38" tires?

Lucas

Jarhead
September 16th, 2008, 05:30 AM
So, are they building what we want, or what they want, or what they know we really meant when we told them what we wanted?

Do we have multiple 28" tired courses, or multiple courses to satisfy 28-38" tires?

Lucas
This is being addressed at several different levels in our attempts to get someone who can provide a definitive answer and actually has a clue as to what they are talking about.

I realize this doesn't answer your question, but that is because we are still aggressively searching for that answer.

T-way
September 16th, 2008, 12:15 PM
Actually to be truthful, we were literally 100% involved in the design, it's the 'execution' portion that we're not involved with. (Lets hope they can read blueprints!)
They used our Rock Crawl Design Guidelines as the basis for the entire facility.
jim-kb8ymf


Thanks for clearing that up Jim. Guess I was wrong! :thumb:

lgottler
September 16th, 2008, 07:08 PM
Does someone need to travel there and look at it?? Anyone want me to go there and snap some pictures of whats done? Anyone else want to go there and do it for me/us?

Do we know what they were planning on doing this year?

Lucas

oz97tj
September 16th, 2008, 07:11 PM
I'm not sure where it's located inside the Mounds, but I'm really not far from there. I could probably make it out there Thursday and take some pics.


Good idea Lucas!

jeepfreak81
September 16th, 2008, 09:04 PM
I'm not sure where it's located inside the Mounds, but I'm really not far from there. I could probably make it out there Thursday and take some pics.


Good idea Lucas!


I think I could find that area again if you need a passenger, I work in Flint and i would just be a hop up there :thumb:

oz97tj
September 16th, 2008, 09:33 PM
Well, if I go alone, it's only going to be with my stock WK. The TJ is up north.

I did contact a buddy who lives near me and has Thursday off to see if he wanted to take his TJ out. I'll be in contact when I know more.

Thanks,
Oz

jeepfreak81
September 16th, 2008, 09:35 PM
Thats better then my Impala LOL

I could always drive the flatty over there too, but thats a slow ride. I just meant to show you where it is at, I figured wheeling in the woods wouldn't be involved :thumbsup:

oz97tj
September 16th, 2008, 09:54 PM
Hey, I'm not not thinking hard wheeling, but then again you never know when a track sneaking into the woods may call your name...


Next thing you know, you have a stock WK buring up to it's headlights. Ask me how I know. lol

95geo
September 16th, 2008, 10:22 PM
nothing for sure yet but i heard a little rumor that "phase one is complete and ready for use"

pretty dissappointing.....

phittie1100
September 17th, 2008, 06:52 AM
Unless you have a desire to see it first-hand Oz, I can send you pictures both from my exploratory trip out there last month, and the trip I made out there with some club members. It really is 3 stock courses, nothing else of interest. A stock Jeep/H3/FJ etc on street tires (not driven by Bryce, but the typical owner of a stock, street-tired vehicle) would find it very challenging, but as soon as you throw in bigger tires and/or a locker (Rubicon, H3 off road package, FJ offroad package) the challenge goes away quickly.

95geo
September 17th, 2008, 08:22 AM
just think of it this way; it is no more challenging than anything else in michigan for a stock vehicle, the only difference is that they are hard rocks and not dirt that make up the terrain.

it might be a bit of a challenge for a stock one ton pickup! :lmao: but in reality it is more like :wah:

oz97tj
September 17th, 2008, 11:09 AM
Well, Lucas was wanting to see pics and I thought that would be a good idea. Frankly though, after thinking about it, pictures always suck! lol

I got the day off without a whole bunch to do, and seeing as I'm only maybe 15 minutes away I might as well go for a little drive...

Thanks though.

oz97tj
September 18th, 2008, 03:16 PM
Ok, I just got back from there. Before I go on, let me state that I have never done any rockcrawling and all I really know about it is what I see in magazines and TV.

With that said, overall the 3 courses that were built look rather nice in my opinion. There was one that was obviously for smaller vehicles and the other two looked about the same difficulty level.

We only had one TJ running 2 inch spacers and 31s so we weren't about to play much. We just went out there to see it and take a few photos. We did pull the TJ onto the easier course and screwed around a bit and it was about as much as he wanted to do as he was already having some clearance issues.

Now, I do believe that there are many guys who need a much more challenging course than what is offered. However, I also believe that we are dealing with a political faction and frankly I was rather impressed with what I saw. Yeah, it's taken a while, but we should be happy we have this.

Now we have a great start. I've heard some grumblings about how lame the courses are. I believe this to be false. I think we need the Genesee Parks to know we are greatful, but we still need some more work done.

My camera was with the gf who is at work so the photos are on the buddies camera. He's going to email them to me later, and I'll post them.

Oz

oz97tj
September 20th, 2008, 12:17 AM
Ok, finally got the pics. The photos of the Jeep are on the easiest course. The other courses look a bit tougher, but probably nothing a jeep on 33s or 35s couldn't do.

WhiteRhino
September 20th, 2008, 07:28 AM
Well as they say, if you don't have anything good to say don't say anything at all......... so, I have nothing to say.

shawn
September 20th, 2008, 09:06 AM
UHG!

shaker
September 20th, 2008, 10:34 AM
Ok, finally got the pics. The photos of the Jeep are on the easiest course. The other courses look a bit tougher, but probably nothing a jeep on 33s or 35s couldn't do.

Looks cool to me.:thumb:

lgottler
September 20th, 2008, 11:29 AM
lol man how badly could someone screw up a rock course. Let me guess, nobody listened to anyone with actual knowledge of "rock crawling"??!!

At least include at least one elevation change!! That is funny! Too bad its "done".

At least the rocks are there, we can try to beat some sense into someone responsible to actually do the "course" part of the whole thing. WTF, flat sweeping turns with rocks scattered around!!!???

I think 95geo had some good points: Put the rocks among trees, put the rocks where the land has some elevation changes. Its like they didn't listen at all, then all the "do not do this" section, they copied exactly.

Whats up with the fence over to the right? Can someone not access the crawl from that side?

joe_jeep
September 20th, 2008, 11:35 AM
i take it there is zero chance they are gonna gunnite the bottom layer and add more? i know wishful thinking.

do you think they will even notice if we add some rock?

jeepfreak81
September 20th, 2008, 12:11 PM
Too bad we can't get a hold of the company that made the course to find out who signed off on the 'completion' of the project. Then throw some of these questions at that person.

oz97tj
September 20th, 2008, 12:32 PM
The fence to the right of the one course is pretty much keeping people from exiting that way into a low swampy area I believe.

As for the courses, like I said I have no real rockcrawling experiance. However we are dealing with the government. Did anyone really think it was going to be perfect the first time around? lol

Anyway, I don't know what the "plans" looked like so I don't know how far off they are. I do think that is it a good start though. With a bit of positive reinforcement from the wheeling community, and with a bit of time so they can see that the rocks bring crowds, hopefully it'll expand.

Renegade II
September 20th, 2008, 12:58 PM
This is what an intermediate course should look like. Trees / elevation changes would be nice (this pile is about 300'x40')

http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/imagehosting/137448bd3d9046421.jpg
http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/imagehosting/137448bd3d9083c4e.jpg
http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/imagehosting/137448bd3d90097ac.jpg
http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/imagehosting/137448bd3d8fb7cf5.jpg

WhiteRhino
September 20th, 2008, 08:39 PM
That's what it SHOULD be for starters. How hard is that?

oz97tj
September 20th, 2008, 11:56 PM
Ok, maybe I underestimated a rock course.

After a pm with WhiteRhino I did not realize a few things as well so I it looks like I may have jumped the gun by stating it looks good.

Please, I want to learn here so I'm going to ask some questions...

Jim stated a very detailed plan was in place, and now they are stating they are out of money. In these plans, does it state not to do the above mentioned paths, or does it states to do one big pile ole rocks?

I just am wondering how far off are they? I mean, are we bigger rocks away from being what was proposed, or is it completely different?


I still am going to stick with my "good start" statement though. I think we should be happy they've even done anything. In these poor economic times, it's great to see them put what I can assume a fair amount of money into something like this. Now if we can help steer them. Just my thoughts.

Renegade, where is that rock course at?

300Grand
September 21st, 2008, 08:05 AM
I'm guessing the they built all three with small rocks because they were cheeper. Little do they know this way was a complete waste of money.

Stan
September 21st, 2008, 12:39 PM
Ok, maybe I underestimated a rock course.

After a pm with WhiteRhino I did not realize a few things as well so I it looks like I may have jumped the gun by stating it looks good.

Please, I want to learn here so I'm going to ask some questions...

Jim stated a very detailed plan was in place, and now they are stating they are out of money. In these plans, does it state not to do the above mentioned paths, or does it states to do one big pile ole rocks?

I just am wondering how far off are they? I mean, are we bigger rocks away from being what was proposed, or is it completely different?


I still am going to stick with my "good start" statement though. I think we should be happy they've even done anything. In these poor economic times, it's great to see them put what I can assume a fair amount of money into something like this. Now if we can help steer them. Just my thoughts.

Renegade, where is that rock course at?

What they did is nothing like the plan that was put together.
People may play on those rocks while they are there but I don't think too many people at all will make a trip to the Mounds because of them.

I'm an hour away from the Mounds and wouldn't even consider loading up the Jeep to drive on them.

Very disappointing.

joe_jeep
September 21st, 2008, 01:43 PM
this would be killer if i was driving a kia sportage, toyota rav4, or honda crv:rolleyes:.

perhaps the wife's gmc envoy has potential afterall:idea:.

shaker
September 21st, 2008, 01:46 PM
What they did is nothing like the plan that was put together.
People may play on those rocks while they are there but I don't think too many people at all will make a trip to the Mounds because of them.

I'm an hour away from the Mounds and wouldn't even consider loading up the Jeep to drive on them.

Very disappointing.


I agree from the pics, I am not jumping up and down wanting to go play on them.

But I agree with oz, that they are better than nothing. And they look like a good thing for beginners to play on, and get the feel for playing on rocks without traveling a long ways to do so.

Mudgoer
September 21st, 2008, 05:40 PM
There is an enviromental risk because more challanging rocks can cause leaks. Just a guess because St. Helens was to have such a risk study.
Our club had a run there yesterday and I had fun on the rocks. Others passed on the rocks for one reason or another.
Thanks go to Jim and others who worked to get them there and layed out like one might want to make timed runs.

Renegade II
September 21st, 2008, 09:11 PM
............Renegade, where is that rock course at?

Those were randomly dumped in that lot in downtown Chesaning, there going to be used to repair the dam.

The Mounds just goes to show that you can even screw up something as simple as a pile of rocks if the right government agency gets involved :lmao:

Mike Hancho
September 22nd, 2008, 05:54 AM
that jeep is sweet on those rocks

oz97tj
September 22nd, 2008, 12:57 PM
that jeep is sweet on those rocks

lol, not really.




For the record, it's his jeep.

Creative Fab
September 22nd, 2008, 02:42 PM
Ok, maybe I underestimated a rock course.

After a pm with WhiteRhino I did not realize a few things as well so I it looks like I may have jumped the gun by stating it looks good.

Please, I want to learn here so I'm going to ask some questions...

Jim stated a very detailed plan was in place, and now they are stating they are out of money. In these plans, does it state not to do the above mentioned paths, or does it states to do one big pile ole rocks?

I just am wondering how far off are they? I mean, are we bigger rocks away from being what was proposed, or is it completely different?


I still am going to stick with my "good start" statement though. I think we should be happy they've even done anything. In these poor economic times, it's great to see them put what I can assume a fair amount of money into something like this. Now if we can help steer them. Just my thoughts.

Renegade, where is that rock course at?

The financing is coming from you, as long as you have purchased an ORV sticker during your wheeling career. So in other words, we are paying for this course and the "fair amount of money" come from the ORV grants program directly from the sale of ORV stickers.

Mike Hancho
September 22nd, 2008, 04:03 PM
I say the course if fineÖItís a recreational course, built in a recreational park to be used by recreational users.

mitrail400ex
September 23rd, 2008, 07:28 AM
I say the course if fineÖItís a recreational course, built in a recreational park to be used by recreational users.

The Mounds is a recreational area, yes, but it's one of the few scramble areas available to users in Michigan. We pay our ORV sticker costs, as well as travel costs, to use our recreational vehicles in designated areas, and those funds are meant to be used to improve our recreational experience.

When the government and members of GLFWDA were working together to come up with a usable plan for a rock course, it was my understanding that several guidelines and expectations were established, and aside from the broadly generalized expectation of "Put rocks here", the government and whoever they hired to build the course FAILED to meet those expectations.

While I can agree with the sentiment that it's nice to finally see them at least try to give us what we've been asking for, it's almost an insult for them to try and pass this along as what we wanted. Now, maybe I've got a bit of "spoiled kid syndrome" going for me, but if I'm promised one thing and given another, I can't help but feel slighted, especially when I paid for the whole ordeal. I liken this to going to McDonalds, ordering and paying for a Double Quarter Pounder meal, then receiving a cheeseburger instead and being told to be happy that I got anything to begin with. Would YOU accept that situation and be happy about it? I certainly hope not.

On the grand scheme of things, Michigan needs something along the lines of a state-owned version of the Badlands if we want to be competitive enough to draw people in from surrounding states. Aside from a trip or two to OSTC, people have no reason to drive hours to get here and spend their time (money) in Michigan. Would the promised rock course be that draw? Perhaps not by itself, but combined with a "complete package" of the wheeling experience, maybe we could steal some of the surrounding business and actually give the DNR a reason to listen to us from time to time. :thumb:

phittie1100
September 23rd, 2008, 09:38 AM
Also remember I am taking notes from this thread (notes - not copy and paste with your names attached!) and others around the MI web-wheeling world. Sometime next month our ORV long-range financial planning committee will resume work on the long-term financial plan for the ORV program. Like the ORV advisory board, this committee has no direct authority - we are only there to advise the DNR on how we (the users) want the program to look when they revamp it, we cannot set policy, raise ORV sticker prices or anything else important - we can only make recommendations. However, most of the folks from DNR who DO make those decisions are part of the planning committee. At the first meeting I let them know that in general WE don't use what they make available - Silver Lake, St Helen, The Mounds we surely use, but the ORV route system was not designed to provide the types of riding experiences most of us prefer. They all looked a little shocked at that, and asked for a little more clarification. This discussion (and others like it on other forums) will certainly provide some additional clarification for them.

Creative Fab
September 23rd, 2008, 12:56 PM
here is a good example of a State owned offroad park where they have ACCOMPLISHED what the users desired

keeping in mind this plce had a lot of natural obstacles, but the MN DNR has also built and maintained alot of man made ones as well

http://www.ironrange.org/

phittie1100
September 23rd, 2008, 01:53 PM
http://www.in.gov/dnr/outdoor/2897.htm
http://www.in.gov/dnr/outdoor/2915.htm

Not the same types of opportunities as MN, but IN seems to get it too.

DDS4X4
September 23rd, 2008, 04:29 PM
YES to MN and YES to IN!!!

Come on MI and OH!!!!