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View Full Version : ORVAW Meeting March 5th @ 10am - Need GLFWDA Reps!



TWEAK
February 28th, 2014, 10:29 PM
You! Yes, you... We need your help. We are looking for some folks to attend the ORVAW meeting detailed below!

Wednesday March 5th from 10am-2pm there will be a quarterly meeting of the ORV Advisory Workgroup (ORVAW). This will be held at the RAM center in Roscommon.

This will be specifically important as there are a few issues that are being discussed that are of great importance to GLFWDA. You can read the whole agenda here: (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/ORVAW_agenda_03-05-14_448527_7.pdf) but these are the key items:

• ORV Event Notification and Permit Criteria
• Silver Lake State Park Voucher Reservation System
• New Trail Fee Update

The ORV Event Notification & Permit Criteria is a key item that we discussed at our last quarterly meeting as this was an ongoing issue with the Department and the introduction of SB50. The new criteria may be published now and we need to make sure that we understand this as well as understand how it would affect groups that have needed permits in the past.

GLFWDA Land Use Committee member Pat Brower is a member on the board, though personal commitments prevent him from attending this meeting. The public is welcome at this meeting and it is a great chance to get involved, meet some of the folks working on ORV access in our state and learn more about the issues affecting our sport. Having members of the Full Size 4 Wheel Drive community present for these meetings is always a plus, so we encourage anyone in the area to be present for the meeting.

lpm606
March 1st, 2014, 06:12 AM
I will be driving up from the Flint area if anybody is interested in carpooling Wednesday morning...

WhiteRhino
March 1st, 2014, 06:54 AM
Thanks for going Ed. I will be out of town.
I think it's really important to take a stand against the need for an event permit for things like snofari. It pisses me off that when we met with the dnr that they wanted to restrict us because they were worried that a drunk on a snowmobile might hit us. Why not enforce harder drunk driving rules rather than regulate us?

phittie1100
March 1st, 2014, 08:33 AM
I am curious to see if, for those events the DNR will still require a permit, the new permit process will be through PRD instead of FRD. That would make a big difference.

The chain between me and my desk doesn't reach that far in March, I will not be able to go.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

shawn
March 2nd, 2014, 08:55 AM
10am on Wednesday? There's no way I can make it. And I really would love to be there, especially because of this whole permit thing that seems to still not be correctly resolved.

fsumotorhead
March 3rd, 2014, 07:48 AM
Unfortunatly I'll be in Las Vegas all week

hemrides
March 3rd, 2014, 09:34 AM
Is this a meeting that folks can provide feedback, or is this just the DNR presenting how it will be? I might be able to make it...have to check my calendar.

Thanks,

Dave

TWEAK
March 4th, 2014, 02:13 AM
This is the ORV Advisory Workgroup which is a subcommittee of MSTAC. The public is welcome but typically you are limited to the end of the meeting to make comments... but if something doesn't seem right it is always good to standup in the meeting and point it out or ask for more info.

The committee has a number of things to review and there will be more then just the DNR presenting and representing.

hemrides
March 4th, 2014, 08:46 AM
Why do they hold this meeting in the middle of the week and on Ash Wednesday? This is a rhetorical question or just an observation...no need to comment!!! :confused:

WhiteRhino
March 4th, 2014, 12:15 PM
The gubment doesn't work on weekends or evening when the peons can attend.

Kixx007
March 4th, 2014, 05:59 PM
I'm in Chicago for the week. Won't be able to make it. Keep me informed Rob!

TWEAK
March 5th, 2014, 01:33 AM
The ORVAW is typically held in the evening (6:30) and many times has been down in the Lansing area. Not sure why they decided to do it in the middle of the day for this one meeting. The rest of the meetings throughout the year are in the evening.

lgottler
March 5th, 2014, 07:01 AM
What better way to avoid public input? Make it so 90% can't make it!

WhiteRhino
March 5th, 2014, 07:09 AM
Is there a way to voice a protest?

shawn
March 5th, 2014, 12:01 PM
If it were in the evening, I would make it, even to Roscommon.

lpm606
March 6th, 2014, 08:45 AM
So, I attended the meeting yesterday. My first time at something like this, so it was pretty interesting. Here are my notes:

Two main things we were very interested in learning from this meeting were in regards to the new ORV license fees and the current parameters for event permits.

Unfortunately, the person that was supposed to be there to discuss the permit guidelines was absent. Guidance at this time is to continue to notify the DNR of any event plans and they will review and determine on a case by case basis if an actual permit is required. They made it clear that they were not looking at this as a fee generating opportunity are more interested in just being aware of what is happening on state land.

On the ORV License issue, I was able to get direct and definitive answer from ORV Advisory workgroup member Steve Kubisiak, who was apparently also on the committee that developed the new license fee structure. For Full size users (including side by sides) the following applies:
#1 - A vehicle with a SOS license plate, driving on ORV ROUTE exclusively does not need and ORV License or an ORV Trail permit. The one exception to that is Drummond Island, where some of the routes require 4x4 and thus do require the ORV License and Trail Permit.
#2 – Vehicles with a SOS license plate driving on ORV TRAIL or in any of the scramble areas (including Silver Lake Sand Dunes) requires both the ORV License and Trail Permit.
#3 – both the ORV License and Trail Permit need to be displayed on the rear of the vehicle just like the old ORV stickers.

Other business included:

ORV instructor academies are being held 3 times this year. A proposed fourth academy that was going to be held in Frankenmuth for “South East Michigan” did not work out, so they are looking at other options for a SE Michigan Academy – there is one possible location in Lapeer. A press Release will be coming out shortly from the DNR with all the locations and times.

Charlotte Keifer, who runs Silver Lake State park for the DNR gave a presentation concerning the Dune Voucher system. As we all know, the line up on Fridays to secure vouchers for the weekend can be an hours long wait with hundreds of vehicles lining the roads leading up to the voucher station. To alleviate the safety concerns, free-up manpower from line control (currently 3 county sheriffs assigned in addition to park staff) and make the process more fair and convenient for the guests, they are proposing an on-line/telephone voucher reservation system to begin phasing in starting next year. After surveying visitors last year, they have found the nearly 80% expressed a desire to have a reservation system and willingness to pay for the dune vouchers. They are proposing a $10.00 fee for the Saturday & Sunday vouchers during the normal voucher period running May through September. The fees would go back in to operating and maintaining the park (Less a portion that is paid to the operator of the system). The ORV advisory work group agreed to support the concept. If approved they would start in 2015 with 80% of allotted dune ready vouchers being available on-line and 20% available first come first serve as now. Parking lot vouchers would remain first come first serve. In 2016 all dune ready vouchers will be reservation and parking lot will be 80/20. Finally in 2017 the system will be all reservation.

Jeff Schmidt from the Forestry Division demonstrated the DNR’s new trail viewer system that will be appearing on-line in late march. In addition to the current static maps of the ORV system, this is an interactive map similar too google maps where you can scroll around the state, zoom in, etc. and add/remove layers to view the ORV system, state parks, etc. Clicking on the color coded trails gives you information on the trail, etc. Looked pretty nice, though currently you are not able to print from it…though you can share a map via e-mail link.

There is a new ORV signage being used on a voluntary basis which includes 8x8 square lettered signs to designate the trail you are on. These would be placed at least once every two miles. These are more relevant to the large connected systems in the UP and they don’t really envision them being in place on our smaller ORV loops and such.

ORV Free Riding Days. The DNR is going to be promoting a Free ORV weekend similar to the Free fishing days they currently run. In fact, the first Free ORV weekend coincides with Free Fishing weekend June 7-8. (Wheelin’ & Reelin’ if you will) They are considering a second free weekend, possibly to coincide with the last weekend of Michigan Trails Week at the end of September.

Speaking of promotions… for the first time this year the Pure Michigan campaign has agreed to spotlight motorized recreation in their promotion of our state as a vacation destination.

Last note was in regards to the Michigan Trails Summit that we attended back in January. Many of the workgroup members present had been at the summit and they noted that it was disappointing how little emphasis was placed on motorized recreation, with the one break-out for motorized rec being basically centered on snowmobiles. ORV folks were not on the agenda to speak or present at all. They did note as disappointing as this was, it was actually an improvement. Apparently at the previous summit, there was absolutely nothing devoted to ORV, so they are hoping to see us gain some more ground at the next summit.

Kixx007
March 6th, 2014, 07:17 PM
Beautiful update, Ed!

WhiteRhino
March 6th, 2014, 07:46 PM
ditto.
Thanks for attending.

Greenway
March 6th, 2014, 08:30 PM
Excellent report, Ed.

Ironman Offroad
March 6th, 2014, 09:08 PM
Thanks Ed.
Nice report.

TWEAK
March 7th, 2014, 12:55 AM
Thanks for attending Ed and for the great write-up. :thumb:

Bummer that Jason Fleming was not present to speak about the new event trigger language. Sounds like they will be discussing it further at the MSTAC meeting. If all we needed to do was "notify" the DNR of larger groups using the land and they wouldn't be accessing fees and trying to limit what we could do that would be fine. The problem that is not the case today across the entire department, so until it is crystal clear on when a permit is needed we will continue to push to make sure that the DNR implements the permit structure as it was intended as part of SB50.

kb8ymf
March 8th, 2014, 09:47 PM
Excellent update on the meeting. One 'little' detail almost got by me..........did anyone else see this?

They are proposing a $10.00 fee for the Saturday & Sunday vouchers during the normal voucher period running May through September. The fees would go back in to operating and maintaining the park (Less a portion that is paid to the operator of the system).

So a park that supports a LARGE number of other 'revenue underperforming' parks in this state and yet they are going to extract MORE out of the ORV commuity.
Sorry, this just doesn't sit well with me.
Jim

lpm606
March 9th, 2014, 06:47 AM
One of the members of the workgroup made a similar point about the park already supposedly "making money" and Charlotte said that many, many years ago the park may have generated revenue but as long as she can recall it is more or less a "Break even" type proposition. She showed some budget numbers, including something like $113,000 annually coming from the ORV fund to the park for the scramble area. I'm sure Pat Brower will receive a copy of the presentation and can get more specific. The money raised from the vouchers would remain at the park - not go towards supporting other parks.

WhiteRhino
March 9th, 2014, 07:29 AM
This will be contrary to other opinions but here goes; With my discussions with Oakland County Parks about the project in Oakland County, their philosophy on charging for any of the park services is based on user exclusivity. A walking path, bike path, dog park, etc can have many people without effecting others. Therefore, there is not a premium charged for that access. As your impact on others and exclusivity increases, your fee increases. They can only allow so many people in the water parks, so the fee goes up. The most extreme example is a golf T-time. Only you, and our 3 other partners have access to that Tee at your designated time. Therefore, you impact other users greatly, therefore you pay for it.

When comparing it to the Vouchers at Silver Lake, I can envision a similarity. They only have a certain amount of Vouchers for a given time. Therefore, by you receiving one, you restrict others from having access. In addition, I am fully aware that there are times people will get vouchers and if they drank too much the night before and can't make the early time, they say "oh well, I'll just get another one for a later time". By charging for vouchers, I see people being more diligent about making their times.

Do I want to keep paying more and more for access to my state land and parks? NO. Am I surprised? NO

kb8ymf
March 9th, 2014, 09:45 AM
One of the members of the workgroup made a similar point about the park already supposedly "making money" and Charlotte said that many, many years ago the park may have generated revenue but as long as she can recall it is more or less a "Break even" type proposition. She showed some budget numbers, including something like $113,000 annually coming from the ORV fund to the park for the scramble area. I'm sure Pat Brower will receive a copy of the presentation and can get more specific. The money raised from the vouchers would remain at the park - not go towards supporting other parks.

I'm sorry that just doesn't make sense. By that statement you are telling me that the park is LESS popular today that is was 5 years ago. If that was true why are they struggleing with longer voucher lines on Friday. Who believes that?
Just visit any other park in the states system. No where EVER is there the concentration and volume of users.
I also don't buy that 'money stays at the park' statment either. I was around when the Michigan Lottery money was suppose to go to Education. We know what happened to that. General Fund money was displaced by lottery money and the education system ended up being the looser by NOT getting any additional money.

FYI: Tee times cost the same @ 7:00 am as they do @ 2:00 pm. If your not there, they move up the next group.

jim

lpm606
March 9th, 2014, 10:10 AM
Just telling you what was relayed in the presentation, Jim... I'm not here to trying to defend or justify their position...

kb8ymf
March 9th, 2014, 10:37 AM
Just telling you what was relayed in the presentation, Jim... I'm not here to trying to defend or justify their position...

Ed, I get that and I'm not picking on the 'messenger'.
As many will tell you, we've been treated as if we were mushrooms since 1976 when P.A. 319 was passed. I've sat through thousands of hours of meetings and I've come to realize that the DNR is going to do whatever they choose to do in spite of any legislative actions or laws put on the books. Same goes for what 'trails' we can use or not use. (For those that question this, think 'Pinball Alley') They can without any justification close anything they want or charge anything they want without any public say. How is that not a Dictatorship?
Jim

gnjeepn
March 10th, 2014, 12:19 PM
I personally feel the voucher system for dune ready vouchers is ridiculous. I understand why the parking lot vouchers are in place. Are they proposing to charge $10 for either type voucher?

WhiteRhino
March 10th, 2014, 12:42 PM
I personally feel the voucher system for dune ready vouchers is ridiculous. I understand why the parking lot vouchers are in place. Are they proposing to charge $10 for either type voucher?

Did you ever go to the dunes before the voucher system was in place? It is way better now.

gnjeepn
March 10th, 2014, 03:10 PM
Did you ever go to the dunes before the voucher system was in place? It is way better now.


I have been there before the voucher system. While I agree it is better I feel for dune ready vehicles it is unnessasary. The main thing that tends to clog things up are parking lot users. They don't know how to park so they waste a lot of space thus causing the line coming in to get backed up. They need better organization to make things move along better.

I don't go as much as I use to but have been around long enough to see things evolve. I just think there is a better way and charging an additional $10 for an unneeded voucher isn't the answer. At least for dune ready.

lpm606
March 10th, 2014, 04:18 PM
Yes this fee would apply to dune ready and parking lot vouchers.

TWEAK
March 10th, 2014, 08:41 PM
I agree with making them available to reserve online, but there shouldn't be any additional cost associated to the user for this.

PAT BROWER - since the ORVAW is in support of this what can we do to provide comments on not supporting this with the additional fee? I am assuming that this doesn't have to go through legislation and it would just be directly implemented by the DNR?

WhiteRhino
March 10th, 2014, 08:45 PM
I have been there before the voucher system. While I agree it is better I feel for dune ready vehicles it is unnessasary. The main thing that tends to clog things up are parking lot users. They don't know how to park so they waste a lot of space thus causing the line coming in to get backed up. They need better organization to make things move along better.

I don't go as much as I use to but have been around long enough to see things evolve. I just think there is a better way and charging an additional $10 for an unneeded voucher isn't the answer. At least for dune ready.

I do partially agree with you. Yes, the parking lot is a cluster and I wish they would expand it........ but we have been told it will never happen. I wish they would set up a separate parking lot for day users that trailer their rigs, this would allow for less parking lot congestion for non street legal vehicles while allowing SOS rigs to get in. I think that charging for the vouchers is overly expensive at $10 but there is a cost associated with it. Since they have not needed to subsidize the vouchers for the past ???? many years, why is it needed now? I do like my thought that by purchasing a voucher, a user is less likely to blow off a morning entry. I think it makes a lot of sense. But, $10 per day is too much.

Prior to the dune ready vouchers, I sat in line as early as 6:00am to get into the dunes. Now it is far more streamlined and I don't think I have ever been in line more than a half hour. Big bonus IMO!

hemrides
March 11th, 2014, 09:47 AM
Is all of the new fees for ORV going to come back to support the trails and admin costs for the DNR? $10 a day is a lot of money, considering that's all you pay for an annual state park sticker. I could see $10 for the year/season, but not daily. Guess they are trying to shore up the coffers!!

Rocky
March 11th, 2014, 05:09 PM
Ed, I get that and I'm not picking on the 'messenger'.
As many will tell you, we've been treated as if we were mushrooms since 1976 when P.A. 319 was passed. I've sat through thousands of hours of meetings and I've come to realize that the DNR is going to do whatever they choose to do in spite of any legislative actions or laws put on the books. Same goes for what 'trails' we can use or not use. (For those that question this, think 'Pinball Alley') They can without any justification close anything they want or charge anything they want without any public say. How is that not a Dictatorship?
Jim

Well stated Jim. I too, have sat thru tons of hours of ORV meetings since 1999. And in the end, it dont really matter what the public likes or dislikes, the DNR will do whatever it is that they want to do, period! They hold ''public meetings'' basically to make it appear that they are listening to us and to collect a few more hours of pay. And yet we still sell about 200k ORV stickers in this State each year. I cant wait to hear all the ORVers who did not involve themselves [ legislatively ] in these ORV sticker fee increases, to start their whinning.

Renegade II
December 10th, 2014, 06:01 PM
So now it comes to light that the company running the online voucher purchase system is going to get to keep all of the money for their services and not one penny will go towards making the dunes any better.

I wonder what fat cat government employee's best buddy owns that company? This smacks of government corruption. You watch, in another year they're going to start sticking that $10 fee on every single person all week long....on top of the increased ORV sticker fee… On top of the trail use sticker fee…

This really screws the people that live in Michigan, especially those that live within a couple hours of the dunes. Over the last 30 years I've been going there, I remember doing a lot of last minute weekend trips or just zipping over there for half a day to set on the beach. The only benefit to this will be for the relatively few people that come from many hours or several states away that are committed "hell or high water" to be there on certain dates for their only trip to Michigan whether it's rain or shine.

Ms.ZJ
December 10th, 2014, 09:08 PM
Its a stink deal for sure.

Renegade II
December 11th, 2014, 03:39 PM
http://www.oceanacountypress.com/2014/12/11/proposed-silver-lake-voucher-system-sparks-outrage/

Renegade II
December 11th, 2014, 04:54 PM
After looking at that article and seeing the massive enthusiast & media response Bill has gotten in just a couple of days, I see something else that disappoints me. This has been in our laps since March and was barely more than a blip on the radar that went unnoticed by almost everyone.
What are we doing wrong as an organization that we cannot generate the same response in nine months as a single advocate has done in four days?

TWEAK
December 11th, 2014, 05:36 PM
After looking at that article and seeing the massive enthusiast & media response Bill has gotten in just a couple of days, I see something else that disappoints me. This has been in our laps since March and was barely more than a blip on the radar that went unnoticed by almost everyone.
What are we doing wrong as an organization that we cannot generate the same response in nine months as a single advocate has done in four days?

This was raised over a number of areas and if you look at this thread (http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthread.php?t=276589) you can see that the community is pretty well split on the topic. We advised the DNR staff (at the July MSTAC meeting) that we were in favor of supporting an online voucher system, as long as it didn't come at any additional cost to the end user. We raised the issue up, and no one in the community really cared that much to raise much of a stink! The Full Size 4WD community just doesn't seem to care... easy to complain but folks won't get involved. We are made up of volunteers of the community - if you don't like something then step-up.

The department that is looking at putting this in place also did a survey in 2014 where they handed out printed requests at the dunes where folks could go take the survey. Over 73% of those surveyed said they would be in favor of having a way to assure use of the dunes before arrival, and the average cost that each responded said they were willing to pay for a voucher was $11.46.

The information in the article that was recently published is much different then what was previously communicated to us (so I'm not sure how true the facts are). For example, folks are stating that the $10 is all going to the company that builds the voucher system. Looking at the data provided (see pictures below) most of this data is being used to recover the operating costs - not all of it is going to the system to manage the vouchers.

Here is the data that the staff that is proposing this provided in July 2014 at the MTAC meeting.

http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo222/rmlawren/002.jpg

http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo222/rmlawren/001.jpg

Overall as previously stated, GLFWDA opinion has been to support a online reservation system as long as there was no additional cost to the user.

Renegade II
December 11th, 2014, 08:39 PM
It's hard to tell the 'feel' of my intent in text, but I'm not complaining. I'm just trying to figure out that spark of magic that other sites or people have that allows them to go viral with info so fast and effectively.
As far as getting info out, I hate to say it, but quite bluntly GL4x4 is so full of trolls pissing all over serious discussions that many people I know don't go on there to have intelligent conversations or look for legitimate info. Regretfully, for unknown reasons, not many people frequent here either. I seem to hear of all of my current hobby / work related issues off of Facebook, Twitter, or through legislative e-mail alerts that usually contain surveys.
Also, if the topic was seen by the board as a split for support/opposition (among actual GLFWDA members) I'm curious as to how we fell on the side of supporting the remote voucher proposal? Was there a motion and vote at a quarterly, or just an executive decision? I'm lucky to make it to one quarterly so just curious.

TWEAK
December 11th, 2014, 10:04 PM
It's hard to tell the 'feel' of my intent in text, but I'm not complaining. I'm just trying to figure out that spark of magic that other sites or people have that allows them to go viral with info so fast and effectively.
As far as getting info out, I hate to say it, but quite bluntly GL4x4 is so full of trolls pissing all over serious discussions that many people I know don't go on there to have intelligent conversations or look for legitimate info. Regretfully, for unknown reasons, not many people frequent here either. I seem to hear of all of my current hobby / work related issues off of Facebook, Twitter, or through legislative e-mail alerts that usually contain surveys.
Also, if the topic was seen by the board as a split for support/opposition (among actual GLFWDA members) I'm curious as to how we fell on the side of supporting the remote voucher proposal? Was there a motion and vote at a quarterly, or just an executive decision? I'm lucky to make it to one quarterly so just curious.

I wish I knew what that "spark" was as well... my hunch is that people really don't tend to care until the change they are fearing is becoming reality. When we brought this up many months ago, I think a lot of folks just wrote it off that it will get worked out or won't happen.

As for GLFWDA's position on this issue, I (the Land Use Committee) took the issue to the board with our suggested position and it was agreed at the board that they would support that position. This was then further discussed at the spring quarterly meeting, and was in the boondocker as well.

I posted a thread here on GLFWDA, linked it into a thread on GL4x4, printed in the LUC section of the boondocker (spring edition I believe) and it was cross-posted onto the GLFWDA facebook page. I think that having an "email" alert would be great and its something that has been discussed at length at the board meetings as they have been working for a long time to get a tool in place to to this (at least to do it much easier then it is today).

swampjeep
December 12th, 2014, 08:58 AM
Wow guys, I'm shocked that I didn't hear about this until it was almost too late. I haven't had the time lately (past several years) to watchthe land use sections for things like this. I thought it was pretty well know that only a small fraction of our community gets their info here. Even on GL4x4 where there is a larger fraction of us, this wasn't mentioned until yesterday, and then in the land use sections which doesn't see half the viewing as the PUB (general chit chat area).

This whole set up is screwy on so many levels. Who do we contact to voice our opinions.

WhiteRhino
December 12th, 2014, 11:13 AM
No one comes here because there is no leadership.
I agree that people are leaving gl4x4.com because of the trolls who ruin it.
I am not a facebook fan and I know many who do not have an account.
Michigan Wheelers is about as dead as the other sites.

Honestly, I think people have backed away from the internet and there is no "good" way to get people involved.

swampjeep
December 12th, 2014, 12:43 PM
This will be contrary to other opinions but here goes; With my discussions with Oakland County Parks about the project in Oakland County, their philosophy on charging for any of the park services is based on user exclusivity. A walking path, bike path, dog park, etc can have many people without effecting others. Therefore, there is not a premium charged for that access. As your impact on others and exclusivity increases, your fee increases. They can only allow so many people in the water parks, so the fee goes up. The most extreme example is a golf T-time. Only you, and our 3 other partners have access to that Tee at your designated time. Therefore, you impact other users greatly, therefore you pay for it.

When comparing it to the Vouchers at Silver Lake, I can envision a similarity. They only have a certain amount of Vouchers for a given time. Therefore, by you receiving one, you restrict others from having access. In addition, I am fully aware that there are times people will get vouchers and if they drank too much the night before and can't make the early time, they say "oh well, I'll just get another one for a later time". By charging for vouchers, I see people being more diligent about making their times.

Do I want to keep paying more and more for access to my state land and parks? NO. Am I surprised? NO

With this in mind, shouldn't they look to charge the people causing the most issues with access? wouldnt' that be the people needing parking space?
Why are they pushing this first on Dune ready and not the other way around?

I will be watching this issue close, and tryign to help out where I can to make this happen in a way that won't hurt us.

swampjeep
December 12th, 2014, 12:45 PM
That could be, but I was shocked when I read about it last night, then doing some searches found it was on a number of other forums and even here for a long time.

TWEAK
December 12th, 2014, 03:09 PM
Wow guys, I'm shocked that I didn't hear about this until it was almost too late. I haven't had the time lately (past several years) to watchthe land use sections for things like this. I thought it was pretty well know that only a small fraction of our community gets their info here. Even on GL4x4 where there is a larger fraction of us, this wasn't mentioned until yesterday, and then in the land use sections which doesn't see half the viewing as the PUB (general chit chat area).

This whole set up is screwy on so many levels. Who do we contact to voice our opinions.

It was actually posted on GL4x4 back in April as well. :thumb:

From what I saw, it looks like this was tabled as of yesterday. Not sure if this will come back to MSTAC for review or if the department will take it on internally. The department is not required to collect the voice of the citizens to manage the "departments" land, so not sure what if any town hall or public outreach they will have before bringing this back around.

hemrides
December 12th, 2014, 05:36 PM
The department is not required to collect the voice of the citizens to manage the "departments" land, so not sure what if any town hall or public outreach they will have before bringing this back around.

This is interesting...I had the pleasure to meet Pat Brower this year and only had time to talk with him for a short period...but the more I see and hear from the Feds and state governments the more I believe Pat and his concerns. I'm currently gathering info to work with the Forest Service to get a few trails opened around Fremont. I hope we have a better outcome. If not, then IMO it's one more nail in the coffin...the days of public access by 4x4's is numbered.

willybad
December 13th, 2014, 03:39 PM
hey you guys,i have always appreciated what you do,now i can really appreciate it.i can't believe i just found out about this.i ran a silver lake fb page w/4995 friends,(that got shut down yesterday) i started a new group silver lake on fb now.i just found this thread today and sent links to channel 8 ,and 13 news,rep. jon bumstead ,and senator goeff hansen.the info you have here is completely the opposite of what the dnr has been telling everyone !jon and goeff both called me today,they have a meeting tues with the head of the dnr .this is the 1st crusade i've ever gone on,i've never had an issue that hit this close to home.i've been on the computer and phone for 3 days,the 1st 24 hrs.w/no sleep,had to start taking blood pressure medicine last night (never seen it that high),and oh yea lost 7 lbs.(which certainly didn't hurt me).anyways thank you for all you do !bill loomis ,wilybad@msn.com

willybad
December 13th, 2014, 03:51 PM
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1555464521336878/?pnref=story

WhiteRhino
December 13th, 2014, 05:36 PM
It's pretty typical Bill. Most people don't/won't get involved until it hits home and then it's quite often too late.

I think there are several issues. First, I don't really know what the full plan is or isn't. As Tweak pointed out, there are misconceptions. I don't want to go to 100% reservations. I don't want to go to vouchers 7 days per week. I don't want a Canadian company running the program. I don't want to spend more money if it's not necessary.

However, I don't think the present system is as good as it could be. Having the ability to reserve access seems fair to the general public. After all, it is a state park and it shouldn't be exclusive to the locals and those that live far away only get the left overs. I've never liked the idea that if I have to work late on Friday that I have no chance to get in the parking lot on Saturday.

I hope it gets worked out.

willybad
December 13th, 2014, 06:22 PM
http://www.glfwda.org/showthread.php?13310-ORVAW-Meeting-March-5th-10am-Need-GLFWDA-Reps%21&p=69663#post69663

here is a link,if you scroll down you can find the document that shows the real #'s from the 10,000 surveys the dnr have been talking about(only a % of the 400 that got returned)).

http://www.glfwda.org/showthread.php?13310-ORVAW-Meeting-March-5th-10am-Need-GLFWDA-Reps%21&p=69663#post69663
here is a link to the petition that was started on 12/11/14 there are already 7 times more signatures against this idea in 2 days than the people who said yes, they would pay for a voucher. those people thought they would be able to drive right in the dunes like the dnr have been telling people.
it will not happen.the only reason lines ever started is because the dnr does not have people ready to go in the dunes when they get to the parking lot.they get there,ask questions,buy all their stickers(state park,orv,and now the orv trail pass), for each vehicle(multiple vehicles if they have a trailer),then they ask," why do i have to buy so many stickers?"this year they will argue,"i already paid to get in ,on line !"they install their mandatory flags,lower the air pressure down ,in their tires, to at least the mandatory 15-20 lbs,use the rest rooms,then the dnr checks their flag height,checks for mandatory forestry approved spark arrestors,manditory seat belts and use,search all coolers to see if you have alcohol in it,and sometimes sound check you to make sure the vehicle you drove isn't above the mandatory db level allowed. this is exactly what happens in the dune ready line.i know, i'm in that line almost every day.
now if the park actually wanted to do something about the lines ,as opposed to limiting the number of people that can enjoy the dunes,they would use their current voucher center ,just down the road (over 70 % of the size of the dune parking lot)for people that aren't actually dune ready ,to get dune ready.if they they didn't already get dune ready before they get to the entrance of the dune parking lot(where they already have employees checking vouchers),they should wave them on.if they would pull people out of line, to do random checks,instead of holding the whole line up every check ,there would be no lines.
this is the only solution to not having long lines.the voucher system only changes the lines.if you did away with vouchers ,let dune ready people drive right into the dunes,and put" no parking" signs where all those "no parking 10 p.m till 6.a..m. "signs are. there would be no lines!
people could arrive when they really want to go to the dunes and drive right in.they would no longer have to be in line a 6 a.m. they could sleep in,they could go to breakfast at a local restaurant,they could enjoy any of the local attractions/businesses.at lunch,they could drive out of the dunes and do the same,and then get right back in ,if they wanted.in the evening when they left,they would not be near as tired and again,could enjoy the local merchants.
the very 1st thing i said when i heard about this was it's just another money grab,charlotte keifer,director at silver lake state park ,told me "this was not the case at all,the money was going to the company running the voucher system".if you scroll down on the 1st link ,you'll see another document with the dnr's own estimated profits on it.

willybad
December 13th, 2014, 06:25 PM
guess now that i'm a member i should get on here so i can be a little more informed .this was the email i just sent to goeff hansen

lgottler
December 13th, 2014, 09:50 PM
Just need to say that I read all this and I don't have an opinion. I'm one of those people that went 3 or 4 times to Silver Lake and I don't plan to go back, it's not my thing. If I can help and it doesn't take much effort I will. So, carry on!

swampjeep
December 15th, 2014, 11:12 AM
It was actually posted on GL4x4 back in April as well. :thumb:

From what I saw, it looks like this was tabled as of yesterday. Not sure if this will come back to MSTAC for review or if the department will take it on internally. The department is not required to collect the voice of the citizens to manage the "departments" land, so not sure what if any town hall or public outreach they will have before bringing this back around.

that's funny, I just did a search on "Silver Lake Voucher" on GL4x4, and the only posts that come up about this new system are from December, and even this thread subject would never lead me to believe it had anything to do with SL. I'm not saying it was put out there with intent to hide it, just that is wasn't made highly visible to those who might be concerned over this issue.

Is there any info out there that would explain how the new system would work, like step by step?
If it works like the camping reservations, I don't see how it would eliminate any lines or the voucher center, because you woudl still need an office to check in at. Plus I don't think the camp grounds ever see 2000 check ins in one day.

TWEAK
December 15th, 2014, 04:59 PM
that's funny, I just did a search on "Silver Lake Voucher" on GL4x4, and the only posts that come up about this new system are from December, and even this thread subject would never lead me to believe it had anything to do with SL. I'm not saying it was put out there with intent to hide it, just that is wasn't made highly visible to those who might be concerned over this issue.

Is there any info out there that would explain how the new system would work, like step by step?
If it works like the camping reservations, I don't see how it would eliminate any lines or the voucher center, because you woudl still need an office to check in at. Plus I don't think the camp grounds ever see 2000 check ins in one day.

From April 5th: http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthread.php?t=276589

WhiteRhino
December 15th, 2014, 05:08 PM
6 pages of discussion. It's just that no one goes to that forum to see what's happening.

swampjeep
December 17th, 2014, 05:58 PM
i JUST SEEN A REVISION TO THE PROPOSAL LOWERING COST TO $3.

WHY WON'T THEY DEAL WITH THE REAL PROBLEM ?

Creative Fab
December 18th, 2014, 12:41 PM
i JUST SEEN A REVISION TO THE PROPOSAL LOWERING COST TO $3.

WHY WON'T THEY DEAL WITH THE REAL PROBLEM ?

Good question. To me the real problem was, and still is, the very small amount of residents that do not want the lines along the road on holiday weekends. It has created more problems than they will ever have solutions for. The current voucher system is working the best of anything given the resources available (state owned land shortage) in my opinion. We are once again giving in to a few at the expense of many. It's an offroad area and has been for decades, deal with it is my take on it.

A long line suggests to me a healthy and vibrant sport/hobby/business, who could be upset with that?

What, in your opinion, is the real problem? This question is to anyone reading this.

WhiteRhino
December 18th, 2014, 02:25 PM
I have never had a problem getting a dune ready voucher but I can see it being difficult for parking lot vouchers. I think it makes sense for some form of pre-registration for a portion of the parking lot vouchers.

swampjeep
December 18th, 2014, 05:05 PM
I agree, with that Jim, I believe there are sort a 2 problems, but both come down to a lack of parking spaces.

Even for dune ready, since they have to drive thru the parking lot, and often need to stop and let air out, or put the flag on etc.

I believe the proposed system will be worse. If they eliminate the voucher center as they say they plan too, then people will have to do their check in at the gate, this will take much longer then it does right now. Check ID, buy ORV stickers, any other questions as there always is with a good number of people who are new, to the dunes, or the new system, this will lead to long lines even for the dune ready.
I would like to see the pilot done on parking lot use, since there is a smaller number of vouchers here, and a bigger line problem with this user group.

TWEAK
December 18th, 2014, 06:33 PM
Looks like the next public meeting will be January 12th, and then taken to the NRC meeting on the 15th of January. No locations/times have been provided yet.

The Department will hold a public meeting on January 12, 2015 in Oceana County to present
these proposed changes, receive feedback from local citizens and ORV scramble area users, and
address any remaining questions or concerns prior to the January 15, 2015 Natural Resources
Commission meeting. The time and location of the January 12, 2015 public meeting will be
provided in a future press release.

https://www.facebook.com/download/306033122930505/Silver%20Lake%20ORV%20NRC%20Memo_Jan%202015_ACTION .pdf

Creative Fab
December 18th, 2014, 06:44 PM
Looks like the next public meeting will be January 12th, and then taken to the NRC meeting on the 15th of January. No locations/times have been provided yet.

The Department will hold a public meeting on January 12, 2015 in Oceana County to present
these proposed changes, receive feedback from local citizens and ORV scramble area users, and
address any remaining questions or concerns prior to the January 15, 2015 Natural Resources
Commission meeting. The time and location of the January 12, 2015 public meeting will be
provided in a future press release.

https://www.facebook.com/download/306033122930505/Silver%20Lake%20ORV%20NRC%20Memo_Jan%202015_ACTION .pdf

This info needs to be plastered everywhere!

And when I typed out my take on the issues I was negligent in considering those who need parking lot vouchers. I have never needed one so I didn't take that into consideration. I have never understood the argument that they are all out of room to make the parking lot bigger given the fact they made a voucher area parking lot. Why couldn't they use that and have the trailer-ed vehicles cross the road to the shoulder, after all we have road shoulder ORV right of ways all over the state now.

Jarhead
December 19th, 2014, 08:47 AM
I have put the Off-Road Vehicle Advisory Workgroup (ORVAW) March 5th Meeting on my calendar.

As for the next public meeting on January 12th, I cannot put it on my calendar until the location and times are identified. (In that the meeting ought to be in Oceana County, I would hope we could depend on those who live within an hour to be able to attend this vital meeting.)

I am not available for the NRC meeting on the 15th of January.

TWEAK
December 19th, 2014, 09:41 AM
I have put the Off-Road Vehicle Advisory Workgroup (ORVAW) March 5th Meeting on my calendar.

As for the next public meeting on January 12th, I cannot put it on my calendar until the location and times are identified. (In that the meeting ought to be in Oceana County, I would hope we could depend on those who live within an hour to be able to attend this vital meeting.)

I am not available for the NRC meeting on the 15th of January.


This thread was started last year, and the March 5th date was for 2014. The new date is for 2015 is March 11th. :thumb:

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/ORVAW_2015_Meetings_476474_7.pdf

Jarhead
December 19th, 2014, 10:41 AM
This thread was started last year, and the March 5th date was for 2014. The new date is for 2015 is March 11th. :thumb:

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/ORVAW_2015_Meetings_476474_7.pdf

Thank You for the heads up, I have saved the date (March 11th).
My schedule works best when I can forecast the dates in advance. I put the remaining (May, August & November) dates on my calendar as well so I save the day.

swampjeep
December 21st, 2014, 11:18 PM
DNR voucher meeting will be held at the golden township hall, 6-8 pm Jan 12. There will be about 6 DNR reps there from Lansing and locally as well as Rep Bumstead

this meeting is for user input, not the actual vote.

StingRay66
December 22nd, 2014, 08:27 AM
If it's about lines on the road why not use the voucher parking lot? There is no need to park along the road and then move to the Voucher lot.
My two cents!

Jarhead
December 22nd, 2014, 08:44 AM
DNR Voucher Meeting will be held at the Golden Township Hall, 6-8 pm Jan 12

The Hall is located at 5527 West Fox Road, Mears, MI 49436

So, who can make it?

swampjeep
December 30th, 2014, 09:21 PM
I think I will be able too.