Rock course/ broken oil pan issue

[Brian D.]

I read on another post that there is a huge concern about punctured oil pans and the oil spill they may create if there was a rock course at the St. Helen scramble area and have a few thoughts.

Is there some kind of liner that can be used to stop the oil from flowing into the earth? They put something down to under landfills. There is probably some kind of drainage system to let the water out and keep the oil in.

Why not dig a big hole, install the drainage system, line the hole with the liner, fill the hole with Sand, Gravel, Jello or whatever to use as a prefilter and arrange the Rocks on top of that. This way the oil can't escape and maybe a costly study can be avoided.

I bet someone knows someone who knows something about this type of system.

I know this is way more complicated then what I described but I wanted to get my thoughts out there. Maybe something good will come out of this idea. Maybe not.

[Brian D.]

I was talking to a friend of mine who is a civil engineer. He thought it would be very likely that a drainage system with an oil seperator could be used to keep the offending oil out of the ground.

Here is the basic idea:
You would need a liner/membrane to lay down where the rocks will be. There would be low spots for the oil, rainwater, Mt. Dew or whatever else spilled in there to collect.

At these low spots the liquid would drain into some type of pipe/culvert and run into a catch basin that has an oil seperator.

Because oil floats on water, the oil seperator lets the water at the bottom leave the catch basin and the oil stays put.

Depending on the length and slope of the course we may need mutiple low spots to collect the run-off. That just means more pipe/culvert to connect into a main drainage that goes to the Catch Basin.

I don't think we would want to put the rocks directly on the membrane because the sharp edges may rip a hole in it. We could lay down some sand or crushed gravel to lay the rocks on. Run-off will take longer to drain through the sand then the crushed gravel but will filter some of the oil out. I guess it depends on what the state would want. Its not like people are going to be using it as an oil pit, but if we use sand and it is contaminated with oil it would be contained making clean up easier if the course is ever removed.




This plan would cost some money. We would need a surveyor to topo the area so that someone could design the drainage system, surveyor again to stake the holes and a contractor to dig the holes the way they are designed and install the pipe/culverts.

This may be more complicated and expensive than it has to be. But if its the only way to get the rocks, maybe its the right way to do it. It would probably be the most "earth friendly" way.

Of course if the state has taken over the whole project and have already decided that they don't want it there its not going to happen. However, maybe something like this could tip the scales our direction due to the fact that a possible solution was presented.

[Ryp]

Would this membrane be the rather thick, black plastic sheeting? I know a man that has owned/operated in the landfill dump business back in the '80s. We still have a small sample roll of this stuff we use for kids "slipnslide" in the summer. It's rather heavy and durable.

The reason I ask is that this fella might have a line on a deal should you need any.


Ryp
ChxJeeper

[Creative Fab]

The State has taken this project away from us and have applied for the grant for the engineering study to determine just how to do it with minimul impact on the eco system. I am sure this is their way to say it isnt possible to put in a rock course with minimul impact on the eco system! This way they can deny the course all together.

The State knows all about the liner you are reffering to as they have used it in other areas to prevent erosion of a trail bed. Getting them to do it for the less than 200 members of GL will be difficult to say the least. This is why we need numbers, 200 isnt a good argument for "please build this for us"

Sorry for the pesimism(sp) but I was the one who got the rock course put into the "St Helen Motorsport Master Plan"
and I am not holding my breath in any hopes of this ever materializing. Unless of course we can rally the entire fullsize MI wheeling faction to speak with one voice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This could be a bigger hurdle than the rock course! But can you imagine if all the MJ users and the GL4x4 forums and the Misfits would all combine thier efforts to see this thing through. :doah: What a concept!

[Brian D.]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ChxJeeper &#064; Mar 2 2006, 07&#58;42 AM) 11318</div>

Would this membrane be the rather thick, black plastic sheeting? I know a man that has owned/operated in the landfill dump business back in the &#39;80s. We still have a small sample roll of this stuff we use for kids "slipnslide" in the summer. It&#39;s rather heavy and durable.

The reason I ask is that this fella might have a line on a deal should you need any.


Ryp
ChxJeeper
[/b]

Actually liner used in landfills came up last night. We figured it was probably some pretty tuff stuff since thy compact that garbage like nobodys business.


Pat,
I understand your pesimisim. And I pretty much knew, as I was typing my best post on the internet ever, that the Rock Course was probably doomed to failure. I just figured that I wold toss the solution out there and maybe something good would come of it.

Check your email in about uh... two hours.

Have a good day you guys
Brian

[kb8ymf]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ironman &#064; Mar 2 2006, 11&#58;04 AM) 11322</div>

I am not holding my breath in any hopes of this ever materializing.
[/b]

Well, first step appears to be a success, the DNR HAS appropriated something like &#036;20,000 for the study this year according to the last ORV Advisory meeting.
j-kb8ymf

[Creative Fab]

Brian and I have exchanged a couple of e-mails today and I think we are off to a good start on keeping this ball rolling. Brian has offered assistance and his time to see if we cant help in whatever it is we need to do to address the oil containment issue.

I am impressed with his enthusiasm and excitied with the news from Mr. Mazzola about the Grant monies that have been appropriated to this project&#33;

If we can work on getting the full size contigency to band together we can push even harder on the DNR door and maybe get some respect around here&#33;

Fight the good fight&#33;

Pat

[oneeightyyourmom]

this is my first post outside of the welcome section. seems funny to post about civil engineering in a jeep forum. anyway i&#39;m a civil (structural) eng. student and i&#39;ve spent a great deal of time researching liners and such. i&#39;ve actually done a complete wastewater lagoon design for ellsworth, MI. since then i&#39;ve seen the light and have moved to building and bridge design.

anyway. constructing a catch basin would be pretty easy to construct if you can get your hands on some earth moving equipment. (otherwise human power). michigan has many distributers of the type of liner you would need. a simple HDPE (high density polyethylene) or PVC liner would do the trick. i think for the EPA they spec. 30 mils PVC or 60 mils HDPE for landfils (mil = 1/1000 inch). i would assume that would suffice for your application as well, the DEQ or EPA might have specs. for something similar with a bit of research. the liners come in rolls and seams are generally ironed together, however depending the width you may not need seams at all.

i don&#39;t know how much you plan on doing yourself but if if you need some civil engineering design/planning work... my rates are cheap. i probably have a bunch more info. on liners, distributers, etc. sitting around somewhere this was just off the top of my head. just let me know if i could help, i don&#39;t know much about jeeps but i do know civil engineering.

[shawn]

Anybody else wonder how often liquids spill on the trail, even tough trails like this. Seems for as rare as it is, the cost of soemthing like this is not justified. To me, it would be another waste of money better spent somewhere else, all bacause of unknowledged government agencies. Anybody ever hear of Carnage Canyon? Aver see the sign at the entrance?



http://www.rickramsey.net/Misctn/CarnageSign.jpg

Take special not on "Spill Kit."

[phittie1100]

Is a spill kit something specific you purchase, or secret code for a 40# can of kitty litter? I have never seen a "kit" to purchase.

[kb8ymf]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(phittie1100 &#064; Mar 13 2006, 02&#58;33 PM) 11968</div>

Is a spill kit something specific you purchase, or secret code for a 40# can of kitty litter? I have never seen a "kit" to purchase.
[/b]

This is what I carry. Motorhome is the big one and the Tracker gets the little one.
This is one of the things we will probably be adding to the &#39;required side&#39; of the ledger when we revamp the trailriding guidelines this year.
Best part is....donation made to BRC on top of it all&#33;
jim-kb8ymf
http://www.bluedevilproducts.com/Standard%...%20Frameset.htm (http://www.bluedevilproducts.com/Standard%20Products/Trail%20Pails/Trail%20Pails,%20L3%20Frameset.htm)

[Roadhouse]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kb8ymf &#064; Mar 13 2006, 02&#58;40 PM) 11969</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(phittie1100 &#064; Mar 13 2006, 02&#58;33 PM) 11968

Is a spill kit something specific you purchase, or secret code for a 40# can of kitty litter? I have never seen a "kit" to purchase.
[/b]

This is what I carry. Motorhome is the big one and the Tracker gets the little one.
This is one of the things we will probably be adding to the &#39;required side&#39; of the ledger when we revamp the trailriding guidelines this year.
Best part is....donation made to BRC on top of it all&#33;
jim-kb8ymf
http://www.bluedevilproducts.com/Standard%...%20Frameset.htm (http://www.bluedevilproducts.com/Standard%20Products/Trail%20Pails/Trail%20Pails,%20L3%20Frameset.htm)
[/b][/quote]


those are cool and I&#39;ve seen them featured in a couple of the mags. once i get back into actually trailriding, that is on my list to purchase for the toolbox.

[phittie1100]

Thanks for the link, Jim.

[Brian D.]

Well,
This summer I am going back to Michigan Tech to get my Civil Engineering Degree. I am going to turn the Rock Course oil issue into a Senior/Independent Research Project. The solution will most likely be very similar to the first one I proposed at the begining of this thread. I have a professor lined up as an advisor and after talking to him a he seemed a little excited about the prospect.

I will start my research this summer and complete the project during the Fall semester.

I have received a positive response to a couple emails I&#39;ve sent Paige Perry, the Trails Program Analyst for the Eastern Lower Peninsula. My information has been filed as a Resource for the "feasablity study" for the proposed Rock
Crawl in the Motorsports Area.

I feel that the worse that could happen is that my findings will be too expensive and unrealistic.

But maybe this will be the solution needed to get the rock course.

I don&#39;t know if this will be the best or cheapest solution but at least it may turn out to be an option.


Brian Dow

P.S.
oneeightyyourmom I may be getting intouch with you for some guidence if you don&#39;t mind.

[Jarhead]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Brian D. &#064; Apr 19 2006, 01&#58;17 AM) 13319</div>

Well,
This summer I am going back to Michigan Tech to get my Civil Engineering Degree. I am going to turn the Rock Course oil issue into a Senior/Independent Research Project...
[/b]
Thank You Brian&#33; :thumb-up:

[T-way]

Good work Brian, and good luck with that degree&#33;&#33;&#33;

:thumb-up:

[timbercruiser]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Brian D. &#064; Apr 18 2006, 09&#58;17 PM) 13319</div>

Well,
This summer I am going back to Michigan Tech to get my Civil Engineering Degree.

Brian Dow

P.S.
oneeightyyourmom I may be getting intouch with you for some guidence if you don&#39;t mind.
[/b]

Yah. Goot for youse&#33;&#33; I go Tech many yearss ago. Is goot school, eh? Holy Wah&#33;&#33;&#33;

DN

[Brian D.]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(timbercruiser &#064; Apr 20 2006, 06&#58;39 AM) 13403</div>



Yah. Goot for youse&#33;&#33; I go Tech many yearss ago. Is goot school, eh? Holy Wah&#33;&#33;&#33;

DN
[/b]

Yah der,
I got my first Dagree from da houghton tech. Had sutch a good time up der I figered I&#39;d go back ya know&#33;

Shootin guns, camping, lots of da fire roads and water falls. I&#39;ve got da whole summer ta map da keweenaw der.

I&#39;m movin back up der next tursday.

Can&#39;t wait

Brian