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TWEAK
June 19th, 2013, 10:24 AM
June 19th, 2013
For Immediate Release and Distribution:

Yesterday both the Michigan Senate and House passed HB4669 and is expected to be signed by Gov. Rick Snyder. This bill puts into affect a ORV sticker increase that is long overdue. This increase will continue to add to the funds that help with the maintenance and development of our ORV routes/trails/parks.

With the increase there is going to be an introduction of a two tiered sticker system. Although the logistics of how the stickers will work exactly have not been worked out yet, there will be a $26.25 sticker that basically is only good for ORV's to ride on the shoulder of county roads and then a $36.25 sticker that allows you to ride on state trails and parks where an ORV sticker is required. For SOS licensed ORV's you will be required to purchase the $36.25 sticker for areas that require the ORV sticker even with a SOS licensed vehicle (i.e. Silver Lake, Saint Helen, Drummond Island).

FOR A LICENSE VALID FOR A 12-MONTH PERIOD BEGINNING APRIL 1, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, OR 2018 AND THAT DOES NOT AUTHORIZE OPERATION OF THE ORV ON STATE ORV TRAILS, $26.25.

(C) FOR A LICENSE VALID FOR A 12-MONTH PERIOD BEGINNING APRIL 1, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, OR 2018 AND THAT AUTHORIZES OPERATION OF THE ORV ON STATE ORV TRAILS, $36.25.

Here’s a link with the full details of what is included in HB 4669:
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(5evqff55uccry5rohu4isqi0))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2013-HB-4669

lgottler
June 19th, 2013, 03:05 PM
So, are there enough projects in the works for full size orv users to justify doubling the price? My knee jerk reaction to doubling a fee (that I feel doesn't even support our sport) is to tear off all my stickers and say bad words then just avoid areas that require a sticker, spend money at private parks and go out of state.

hemrides
June 19th, 2013, 09:06 PM
Well I still say that's where the state will push all this activity to...private parks. I know most don't agree..just MO.

Renegade II
June 19th, 2013, 10:44 PM
It must cost a lot more money now a day to drop trees across trails and post signs saying the area has been closed with our ORV fees.

To each their own on parks, no jab on anyone intended. Other than our Silver Lake friends reunion once a year I'm not a fan of park wheeling. Even then, 90% of the time we're just at camp or the beach hanging out. I like to travel off road, even if its just two tracking amongst nature in the middle of nowhere. If they close more trails up and push everything to parks (which all seem to be focused on smash every body panel obstacles) I'll be selling off my 4x4's.

Jarhead
June 20th, 2013, 07:48 AM
For those involved in Trail Maintenance, this fee increase is long over due. GLFWDA receives much of their funding from trail maintenance and pass along a percentage to the clubs/individuals who perform the maintenance for the grants GLFWDA is responsible for. In short, each person that helps with Trail maintenance is giving of their time and monies to provide a service they may never personally use. The last fee increase for the ORV Program was back in the mid nineties or was that eighties; without the increase, the State would have had yet another reason to close our trails.

lgottler
June 20th, 2013, 09:26 AM
I think we should start to use the word ROAD instead of TRAIL. After calming down a bit I understand the increase. But as a customer and he dnr the vendor, they are providing me with roads I can drive down in 2wd and anything remotely fun is closed off, I'm not getting a whole lot besides some rocks in a pile. If they can tell me about all the new dedicated full size trails they are planning, ill pay. Otherwise, maintenance on dirt roads? I would prefer unmaintained abandoned trails....

phittie1100
June 20th, 2013, 11:50 AM
For those involved in Trail Maintenance, this fee increase is long over due. GLFWDA receives much of their funding from trail maintenance and pass along a percentage to the clubs/individuals who perform the maintenance for the grants GLFWDA is responsible for. In short, each person that helps with Trail maintenance is giving of their time and monies to provide a service they may never personally use. The last fee increase for the ORV Program was back in the mid nineties or was that eighties; without the increase, the State would have had yet another reason to close our trails.

Well put Bob - as I have mentioned in several threads over the last few years, the old $16.25 price rolled forward for inflation would be in the range of +/- $30 today. However the DNR has added 500-600 additional miles to the system, plus the rocks at St Helen and the Mounds, plus the routes on Drummond Island that have at least a modest amount of 4x4 challenge so from a purely geeky numbers guy point of view, $36.25 smells about right.

WhiteRhino
June 20th, 2013, 06:51 PM
I've posted a couple replies to this over on gl4x4. Here's a couple thoughts. We're currently vacationing on the Outer Banks of NC. It cost me $50 for a week long pass to DRIVE ON THE BEACH....... ONLY. $150 if I want an annual pass. This pass gets me no hills, no scramble areas, no drag racing, no driving over 15 mph............ only the ability to drive on the beach.

Whether you like Silver Lake Sand Dunes or not, it is the ONLY dune area accessible to OHV activity east of the Mississippi. Then add in St Helen Motorsport area and you have nothing to complain about.

I'll be the first to say that I believe our trail system sucks for full size users. And I also think it sucks that the closure of Ant Trap and a sign at the bottom stating it is using our OHV dollars pisses me off. Especially since the closure is at the sole discretion of only one person with no revue process. These are issues that need to change. But the dollars we currently spend are worth it.

I see others saying money should be spent on private parks. Although I love our private parks and support them as much as I can, I think the mix of private and public is important. I'm also looking forward the elusive OHV park in SE Michigan.

We currently have some interest from our govm't for our sport. Let's keep it going.:thumb:

lgottler
June 20th, 2013, 08:27 PM
I'll be the first to say that I believe our trail system sucks for full size users. And I also think it sucks that the closure of Ant Trap and a sign at the bottom stating it is using our OHV dollars pisses me off. Especially since the closure is at the sole discretion of only one person with no revue process. These are issues that need to change.

I agree with you here. It just seems like they open a few scramble areas up for us to use then slowly remove any challenge to the trail systems. They say, look here in my right hand all these cool things we are doing, while with the other hand they remove what should be more important to us.

I dont think this high of an increase is justified. How many people buy orv stickers that dont need to now? At work I have 3 trucks with them because they think if they go hunting in upper Michigan they need them! So, while private parks only get money to operate based on who drives through the gate, the dnr gets probably 10 to 1 on people who pay vs people who actually use plus gate fees for some parks! Granted the dnr deals with more miles of trail, enforcement, etc. But my made up number of 10x the gate fee seems like it has that more than covered.

So what I want to see is a dedicated trail system for full size users (open to quads and side by sides) with challenge areas that are part of the trail (with bypasses) whose challenge sections maintained by an adopt-a-highway method. In addition to all the current trails, parks , areas. Then I'll pay twice as much.

Renegade II
June 20th, 2013, 10:25 PM
This.

.....So what I want to see is a dedicated trail system for full size users (open to quads and side by sides) with challenge areas that are part of the trail (with bypasses) whose challenge sections maintained by an adopt-a-highway method. In addition to all the current trails, parks , areas. Then I'll pay twice as much.
I'm not getting down on Silver Lake as a park, it's still fun to play there. Heck, we use to go there every weekend for many years when I stayed west. It just gets kinda "been there, done that" after 30 years of going there.

The DNR's closed unless posted open and grandma's Buick rules will keep parks & rec from making this state a true "trail riders destination" state.

TJ/WILLYS
June 20th, 2013, 11:07 PM
I buy a ORV sticker for everyone of my toy's every year. One for the jeep, two for my quads, and two for my bikes. Even though I don't get as much time to use my toy's as I would like, increase or not I will still buy them.

Rocky
June 26th, 2013, 09:20 AM
Sure is strange how we can get a bill like SB 4669 to pass in 6 weeks of floor time but we cant find a legislator who will spend 5 minutes of time with us to amend some very old and outdated ORV laws that we have had in place since 1991. Check this out, our kids [at any age] may legally operate ANY OFF ROAD VEHICLE on Michigans designated trail system that is classified as an ORV, which includes Dirt bikes, Side by Sides, Pick-Up trucks, Jeeps, Sand Rails ect, as long as they have a valid ORV Safety certificate and direct visual supervision of an adult while operating. BUT, may not operate a 4 wheeler [ ATV ] under the same/similier circumstances until they are 12 years old.

And did you know that your kid cannot even legally PRACTICE operating with either an ORV or an ATV on even their own ma/ma daddy's property without first obtaining an ORV safety training certificate when they are under the age of 16 years old?

In 2012, I was interveiwed by the Detroit FP and complained of the poor shape of some of our 50 inch ORV trails.Lew Shuler [ Executive Director CCC ] told the Detroit Freepress in the same interview that Michigan has the BEST MAINTAINED TRAIL SYSTEM ANYWHERE IN THE COUNTRY and that my comments regarding poor trail maintenece are no longer valid. What Shuler forgot to tell the FP was that his non-profit club rakes in over 250k per year for the sub-standard work that they do on some of our ORV-ATV trails.All of this money is paid directly out of YOUR $16.25 ORV sticker fee's. I'll bet with this new increase in user fee's, he'll be smiling all the way to the bank now.

This is no slam on GLFWDA because I dont operate a full size ORV on Michigan ORV Routes so I have no idea what shape you guys keep your portion of trails in for the grant dollars you receive,and I do know quite a few of you folks and all seem to be straight-up folks. BUT, as an avid person who operates an ATV on our 50 inch trails, their is NO WAY we have the best maintained trails in the country. Tough to inspect 3600 miles of trails PROPERLY when only 3 DNR inspectors do all the inspections, and ALL 3 inspectors work for Forest Mineral Fire Management Divison of the DNR. If a widfire breaks out during the trail inspections, guess where these 3 inspectors are headed? Can you say BYE BYE trail inspection! In a trail maintenence workshop that I attended, the trail inspectors admitted that they do not inspect the entire trail, of course, I already knew that. The DNR can hire additional outside trail inspection help if they want, but its pretty apperant that they would rather give us sub standard trail inspections than to hire outside trail inspection help to assure all 3600 miles of trails are actaully inspected and we our getting our dollars worth.

Look at all the WASTE of YOUR ORV sticker dollars that go into the ORV Instructors Academy. Under Dept of Education, the rules stated that all safety classes were to give 4 hours of classroom and 3 hours of hands on training. Along comes the DNR in Oct of 2003 and removes the hands on portion of the training class and no longer makes it mandidtory. YET they spend 75% of this instructors academy training outside doing HANDS ON training, one for ATVs, one for Dirt Bikes, one for SxS, and one for winching.

YOUR ORV Dollars, hard at work!

lgottler
June 26th, 2013, 12:45 PM
What do you consider a well maintained trail? I grew up on quads until I was about 20 then went to Jeeps. I loved the wornout challenging wet, swampy, steep trails. Slow technical was fun. The trails that were wide with whoops for miles sucked. Trees down were awesome. 15 years ago, the most fun I had was north of Atlanta mi on an atv trail up there that was a mix of dirt water, mud technical root hopping fun. The area I was most familiar with, by center fire trail by standish gradually grew boring, they kept improving it to the point of boredom, moving trails to less technical areas, away from anything even remotely damp, etc...

My idea of maintained trail are markers, signs and trimming up branches neck high. For full size, same but trim trees 8 ft high. Dont touch the trail with a blade!

Rocky
June 26th, 2013, 01:19 PM
What do you consider a well maintained trail? I grew up on quads until I was about 20 then went to Jeeps. I loved the wornout challenging wet, swampy, steep trails. Slow technical was fun. The trails that were wide with whoops for miles sucked. Trees down were awesome. 15 years ago, the most fun I had was north of Atlanta mi on an atv trail up there that was a mix of dirt water, mud technical root hopping fun. The area I was most familiar with, by center fire trail by standish gradually grew boring, they kept improving it to the point of boredom, moving trails to less technical areas, away from anything even remotely damp, etc...

My idea of maintained trail are markers, signs and trimming up branches neck high. For full size, same but trim trees 8 ft high. Dont touch the trail with a blade!

I also like a challenging trail too, but grant sponsors are suppose to follow the guidlines that are in the handbook first.

When a grant sponsor agree's to do trail maintenence, he/she is given a ORV Trail & Route Maintenance Handbook by the DNR. This book outlines trail clearance standards which are as follows,

* TRAILS/ROUTES SHOULD BE CLEARED OF BRUSH,BRANCHES, AND OBSTRUCTIONS WITH THE DIMENSIONS ACCORDING TO THE FOLLOWING.

^MOTORCYCLE TRAILS are to be cleared to 24 inches width at ground level and 40 inches at handlebar level up to 8 feet.
^ATV TRAILS are to be cleared to 50 inches width up to 8 feet.
^ORV ROUTES are to be cleared to 72 inches width up to 8 feet
^CONFIDENCE markers shall be spaced at approximately 0.1 mile intervals

These guidelines are directly from the Trail Maintenance Handbook and its what every ORVer pays for when they are operating on a designated trail system. I can tell you with a great deal of accuracy that very few 50 inch trails meet the above guidelines, yet some of the non-profits been sucking the trail maintenance portion of your $16.25 ORV sticker fee's dry for years, all with the consent of the DNR. Now they are going to laugh all the way to the bank again.

lgottler
June 26th, 2013, 02:53 PM
I understand. I've been lost on a quad trail once, marks once every couple hundred yards, but hit an area littered with illegal cross trails and followed most well traveled, ended up joining the road and a dnr truck parked there. Luckily they understood our problem and told us not to let them see us on the road again.

I've done trail maintenance with glfwda once or twice and understand that part. We did, in my eyes, a great job marking and placing signs and confidence markers. But it has been years since I've been down an atv trail.

Again, if with what Rocky is saying is true, id like to see a plan laid out to show me how this doubling of the fee will be used. Still 3 people when able? Or one dedicated position for inspection. As well as my concerns about full size trail riding opportunities.

Maybe a letter, who should get it?

Rocky
June 26th, 2013, 05:58 PM
I understand. I've been lost on a quad trail once, marks once every couple hundred yards, but hit an area littered with illegal cross trails and followed most well traveled, ended up joining the road and a dnr truck parked there. Luckily they understood our problem and told us not to let them see us on the road again.

I've done trail maintenance with glfwda once or twice and understand that part. We did, in my eyes, a great job marking and placing signs and confidence markers. But it has been years since I've been down an atv trail.

Again, if with what Rocky is saying is true, id like to see a plan laid out to show me how this doubling of the fee will be used. Still 3 people when able? Or one dedicated position for inspection. As well as my concerns about full size trail riding opportunities.

Maybe a letter, who should get it?

I think we sell about 200k ORV stickers per year. And of these 200k sold stickers, ''maybe'' a total of 10k are from folks involved in various non-profit ORV clubs. Most of the non profit club leaders and the DNR are the people who go to Lansing and lobby our legislators for these fee increases while the other 190k ORV users usually find out about it after the fact, so essentailly, you have a few people making the choices for 190k un-informed people.In the last random ORV survey taken around 2009 or 2010 by Dr Charles Nelson of MSU, indicated that approx 65% of RANDOM ORVers did not support a fee increase. Once again, a few ORVers making the call for ALL of us! There is SO much waste in this program, its not amusing to discuss. I have been instructing ORV Safety education classes since 1999,I did it on both a state level and a nation level.

Some common questions that seems to appear in every class,

1.Why are the trails in such bad shape?
2.Where does my $16.25 ORV sticker fee go?
3.Why can my 6 year old ride a dirt bike but not an ATV until he is 12?

Rocky
June 26th, 2013, 08:28 PM
SO, Please take a look at [d] does it mean starting April 1 of 2019 that ORVers start to ride for free in Michigan? Its does say ''no fee'':banghead:

(2) The fee for a ORV license is as follows

(a) For a license valid for the 12-month period beginning April 1, 2013, $16.25.
(b) For a license valid for a 12-month period beginning April 1, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, or 2018 and that does not
authorize operation of the ORV on state ORV trails, $26.25.
(c) For a license valid for a 12-month period beginning April 1, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, or 2018 and that authorizes
operation of the ORV on state ORV trails, $36.25.
(d) For a license valid for a 12-month period beginning April 1, 2019 or a subsequent April 1, no fee.

TWEAK
June 27th, 2013, 03:39 PM
SO, Please take a look at [d] does it mean starting April 1 of 2019 that ORVers start to ride for free in Michigan? Its does say ''no fee'':banghead:

(2) The fee for a ORV license is as follows

(a) For a license valid for the 12-month period beginning April 1, 2013, $16.25.
(b) For a license valid for a 12-month period beginning April 1, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, or 2018 and that does not
authorize operation of the ORV on state ORV trails, $26.25.
(c) For a license valid for a 12-month period beginning April 1, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, or 2018 and that authorizes
operation of the ORV on state ORV trails, $36.25.
(d) For a license valid for a 12-month period beginning April 1, 2019 or a subsequent April 1, no fee.

I am guessing that the idea here is this will force them to re-evaluate the fees before 2019 after having the new structure in place for 5 years.

fsumotorhead
June 27th, 2013, 08:49 PM
I am guessing that the idea here is this will force them to raise the fees before 2019 after having the new structure in place for 5 years.

fixed it for you :thumb: