PDA

View Full Version : chro mo axles



joe_jeep
February 23rd, 2006, 08:33 AM
im building a hi pinion d44 and a 9in out of a 79 bronco for my tj. i wanna use good chro mo axles. any opinions on who makes the best axles?? i have used superior evolution series chro mo axles in my d35 for years, and think they are very good. but looking for other opinions thx. (warn moser dutchman ect...)

95geo
February 23rd, 2006, 09:26 AM
superior are the best, then theres warn but some say they are too hard, alloy usa, moser (ive heard bad things about the lower models) and then yukon, some say yukon is junk because their quality control resembles that of mc donalds but if you have a problem it will get resolved without hassles, even breakage.

i am using yukon 4340s and superjoints, pretty much every time out im in a situation where a stock shaft would probably let go.... so far they are holding up well

i think WhiteRhino has one of every chromoly shaft in his front axle by now... he'd be a good source

WhiteRhino
February 23rd, 2006, 09:39 AM
Ha! :rolf:

I have an early Bronco setup like you are planning on doing. Rears are Moser 31 splines. I had a bent axle housing & because of the misalignment, I damaged the internal spline of a Strange full spool. The spline on the axle shafts showed signs of wear but still looked good. These same axle shafts ripped up the inner spline of an ARB locker and also a mini spool. I damaged all 3 before I realized the problem was the housing. Reider racing will tell you Moser makes the best rear shafts.

On my front D44, I have a moser inner on one side and a Yukon on the other inner. Both outer stub shafts are warn.
Reason? I upgraded as I broke them. I also have the Yukon super joints.

If you go on Misfitoffroad.com, go to the Garage & look back a ways. I did a writeup of strength of materials. Towards the end, I did a post of heat treat hardness of different axles. I had brought a hardness tester home from work while I had everything apart & compared all my different axles.

As 95Geo said, the rumor is that Warns are harder & therefore more brittle. By my testing, I could NOT prove it.

Seems that the general overwhelming opinion on sites like Pirate will say Superiors are the best. But, lots more money!

I think the real key is any type of alloy shaft but it must be combined with some type of high end joint. Just buying Spicers is not good enough.

Jeeperz-Creeperz
February 23rd, 2006, 11:56 AM
I'll probably take flak for this but I stand by it.

Moser all the way. Superior get's their shafts imported from overseas, as does Yukon and I wouldn't use either one. Superiors plant is shut down, which is why their importing and Randy's Ring & Pinion imports Yukon (their brand).

One of our manufacturers did a test on a Yukon shaft and found the metal was inferior to a stock shaft..... which would explain why it's so cheap.

95geo
February 23rd, 2006, 12:05 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jeeperz&#045;Creeperz &#064; Feb 23 2006, 10&#58;56 AM) 10786</div>



One of our manufacturers did a test on a Yukon shaft and found the metal was inferior to a stock shaft..... which would explain why it&#39;s so cheap.
[/b]


yukon 44 shafts are stronger than stock (35spline) 60 shafts. :haha:

and superior has 2 lines of shafts, yukons and their own made by foote axle and forge in the states (the more expensive ones) are you sure this place is closed down?

Ridgerunner
February 23rd, 2006, 12:21 PM
I&#39;m runnin moser shafts front and rear. 35 spline in the 60 and 30&#39;s up front in the 44.lookin at upgradin to high performance joints for the front end. I chose moser because quick turn around time, price and they&#39;ve been at it a long time.besides, my last name is the same but no relatiion.

95geo
February 23rd, 2006, 12:38 PM
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread....erior+shut+down (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=446466&highlight=superior+shut+down)

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread....erior+shut+down (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=437945&highlight=superior+shut+down)

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread....erior+shut+down (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=426936&highlight=superior+shut+down)

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread....erior+shut+down (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=220451&highlight=superior+shut+down)

if you havent signed up for pirate then your not helping yourself much.....

i didint see any talk of superior not producing their higher end shafts

JohnnyJ
February 23rd, 2006, 01:33 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(95geo &#064; Feb 23 2006, 11&#58;05 AM) 10787</div>

yukon 44 shafts are stronger than stock (35spline) 60 shafts.
[/b]


Here&#39;s a quote from GOAT1 on pirate4x4 talking about strengths for alloys vs spline counts. This would contradict that an alloy 30-spline shaft would be stronger than a non-alloy 35-spline shaft, unless you can get 70% strength increase with the yukon alloy. click (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5144033&postcount=7)




Metallurgy hasn&#39;t advanced, it has been there for 20 years, just the demand and market price has allowed manufactures to use better materials and processes for our products. You can only do so much with a better material, switching from 1045 to 4140 will only net you about a 40% gain in strength, but by just going from 30 spline to 35 spline (same material) will get you a 70% gain in strength change to any alloy 35 spline will get you about a 140% gain.
[/b]

That said, I run moser axles because of their quick turnaround and that&#39;s who DTS uses. I had tried to get yukon d60 inners for the front, but they were not available (out of stock). I didn&#39;t have the coin to drop on superior shafts.

For a D44, I believe Crystal is running either Warn or Superior shafts and CTMs with her 38 SXs. Not problems so far.

95geo
February 23rd, 2006, 01:44 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JohnnyJ &#064; Feb 23 2006, 12&#58;33 PM) 10800</div>



Here&#39;s a quote from GOAT1 on pirate4x4 talking about strengths for alloys vs spline counts. This would contradict that an alloy 30-spline shaft would be stronger than a non-alloy 35-spline shaft, unless you can get 70% strength increase with the yukon alloy. click (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5144033&postcount=7)



[/b]

i cant find where i saw the information but then again i havent looked really hard.

keep in mind the chromoly shafts are fully hardened as where the stock shafts dont have hardened ears.

WhiteRhino
February 23rd, 2006, 02:15 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(95geo &#064; Feb 23 2006, 12&#58;44 PM) 10802</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JohnnyJ &#064; Feb 23 2006, 12&#58;33 PM) 10800



Here&#39;s a quote from GOAT1 on pirate4x4 talking about strengths for alloys vs spline counts. This would contradict that an alloy 30-spline shaft would be stronger than a non-alloy 35-spline shaft, unless you can get 70% strength increase with the yukon alloy. click (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5144033&postcount=7)



[/b]

i cant find where i saw the information but then again i havent looked really hard.

keep in mind the chromoly shafts are fully hardened as where the stock shafts dont have hardened ears.
[/b][/quote]

This is true. When I compared all the hardnesses, I found that the spline area and bearing race areas to be very similar. However, the stock axles were dead soft in the yoke area.

joe_jeep
February 23rd, 2006, 05:07 PM
thx alot, i got superior now in my rear end and i was very impressed. i will run ctm joints and keep my old stock stuff as sprares. definately leaning towards superior or moser. i also heard warns were too hard and brittle. how much more money were superior compared to moser or warn??? i think the price difference might be worth it, mine looked like art, they were perfect no nicks or scratches. whats a set of axles for a d44 front cost ??

Jeeperz-Creeperz
February 23rd, 2006, 06:19 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(95geo &#064; Feb 23 2006, 11&#58;05 AM) 10787</div>

yukon 44 shafts are stronger than stock (35spline) 60 shafts. :haha: [/b]
I beg to differ. The test compared a Yukon Chromoly D44 shaft and a Spicer D44 shaft and the Spicer came out on top. Yukons don&#39;t break because people usually use larger axles (upgrade from 30-spline to 35-spline).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(95geo &#064; Feb 23 2006, 11&#58;05 AM) 10787</div>

and superior has 2 lines of shafts, yukons and their own made by foote axle and forge in the states (the more expensive ones) are you sure this place is closed down?
[/b]
Superior *IS* Foote Axle. Yukon is a line by Randy&#39;s Ring & Pinion and comes from India. Superior also imports from India.

The EPA shut down Foote Axle & Forge with a &#036;20K fine. EPA docket 98-13. They&#39;re working at getting things back up again.

Jeeperz-Creeperz
February 23rd, 2006, 07:32 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(joe_jeep &#064; Feb 23 2006, 04&#58;07 PM) 10807</div>

thx alot, i got superior now in my rear end and i was very impressed. i will run ctm joints and keep my old stock stuff as sprares. definately leaning towards superior or moser. i also heard warns were too hard and brittle. how much more money were superior compared to moser or warn??? i think the price difference might be worth it, mine looked like art, they were perfect no nicks or scratches. whats a set of axles for a d44 front cost ??
[/b]
CTM u-joints are for rock crawlers who travel at low speed. There are no needle bearings in them only bushings which will wear out quickly when travelling at speed and through mud.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(95geo &#064; Feb 23 2006, 11&#58;38 AM) 10794</div>

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread....erior+shut+down (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=446466&highlight=superior+shut+down)

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread....erior+shut+down (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=437945&highlight=superior+shut+down)

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread....erior+shut+down (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=426936&highlight=superior+shut+down)

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread....erior+shut+down (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=220451&highlight=superior+shut+down)

if you havent signed up for pirate then your not helping yourself much.....

i didint see any talk of superior not producing their higher end shafts
[/b]
???
I saw nothing there to confirm or deny my "rumor".

Did you know Alloy USA isn&#39;t USA made? One of the partners is Indian, as in India (not native american). But you won&#39;t read that in any of thoses posts either.

WhiteRhino
February 23rd, 2006, 09:36 PM
Seems that no matter what site you go on, this is always a hot disputed topic.

NOW, LET ME STRESS THAT I AM NOT SAYING ANY ONE OF YOU IS WRONG&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; OR RIGHT&#33;

But, what I can say is this: I am an engineering and manufacturing manager of a company that deals with both of these materials EVERY DAY. We manufacture domestically and also import these materials. We deal with everything from dead soft to thru hardened to case hardened using a large variety of heat treaters.

Unless you do a material analysis, a core hardness test, a case hardness test, a case depth test, and finally, a destructive test, there is NO ONE who can say one axle is better than another. Period&#33;
The only way to do a statistical test is to perform an FEA. (finite element analysis) This is where the shaft is modeled on a computer and put through stesses to tell where the weak points are at. Figure &#036;5000 to do a good FEA.

What we all know is what we have either heard or read. But, how reliable is any information? And comparing what one person broke to another broke is NEVER under identical circumstances.

The reality is that if each supplier is truely supplying the material and heat treatments that they profess, any moly shaft of similar size will be better than a stock shaft. Regarding comparing a moly D44 against a stock D60, there are multiple areas to compare. If you are looking at a cross sectional area multiplied by the tensile strength, the math will be conclusive. But there are other comparisons. Most stock axle shafts have an undercut for manufacturing. And as I commented before, my testing, although not conclusive shows that the yoke areas are dead soft on stock axles. So, when we read about one test or another, we have to know where the "weak spot" of each shaft is at. Because as the saying goes, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.


Same goes for CTM, OX and Yukon joints. Although they were developed primarily for rock crawling, there are a lot of people out there running them for general wheeling with very good results. I just went with a set of super joints but do not have any personal history yet.

I can see where I am going to gather a bunch of axles & take them in to work to do a material analysis. We have a machine that can do a non destructive test & give pretty conclusive results of material types. That along with a hardness test will be interesting.

Jarhead
February 24th, 2006, 06:27 AM
Okay dad, can we bring grape pop and pop corn to watch?

joe_jeep
February 24th, 2006, 08:24 AM
i was just online looking at shaft prices, and the price difference between superior and warn was between 15 to 25 dollars per shaft not too bad. either i got a high price on warn, or a low price on superior, or the price is closer than i thought. i really like the superior evolution shafts in my d35, and think i might go that route for the new axle set up&#33;
i never broke the d35 shafts with 35 in mtrs and a detroit locker, not too shabby&#33; im going ctms for sure, if they wear out they wear out, i probably wont break em. plus ill have lock out hubs so they wont spin on the road, and i only wheel 8 or 10 times a year. do they sell rebuild kits for ctm joints? (new bronze bushings)

95geo
February 24th, 2006, 09:30 AM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(joe_jeep &#064; Feb 24 2006, 07&#58;24 AM) 10841</div>

do they sell rebuild kits for ctm joints? (new bronze bushings)
[/b]

im not sure if you priced them but yukons are about 350 a set, and ctm rebuild kits are about 75 each from what i remember

Jeeperz-Creeperz
February 24th, 2006, 10:08 AM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(WhiteRhino &#064; Feb 23 2006, 08&#58;36 PM) 10826</div>

Unless you do a material analysis...[/b]
A material analysis was done.

I&#39;m not here to debate the topic, I just recommended a brand based on what I know which is what I believe is what was aked for. Opinions are like you-know-whats, everyone has one and everyone is entitled to their own. I was just trying to share information that I have gathered over the years.

I will still probably never recommend or use Yukon products but it is good to hear of others experience with them, good or bad.

95geo
February 24th, 2006, 10:26 AM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jeeperz&#045;Creeperz &#064; Feb 23 2006, 05&#58;19 PM) 10814</div>

I beg to differ. The test compared a Yukon Chromoly D44 shaft and a Spicer D44 shaft and the Spicer came out on top. Yukons don&#39;t break because people usually use larger axles (upgrade from 30-spline to 35-spline).

[/b]

quoted for humor....
i have 30 spline inners and 19 spline outers



the only thing i can say is that the test piece was most likely flawed and lead to a false conclusion but then it would point out their quality control issues, but like i said if you have a problem they will take care of it

if you want when the search is back up on pirate ill get you the thread where alloy usa is being criticized for not selling usa parts

WhiteRhino
February 24th, 2006, 10:58 AM
Kevin,
I also do not want to debate the differences. Especially since I do not know how the conclusions were derived.
I am merely pointing out that there are a ton of different things to be looked at.

What was the summary of the analysis? I am curious what was done.

Was Yukon found to not be supplying the material they advertised? Were both axles supposed to be from the same material and found to be different?
Was a destructive test done under controlled circumstances & the Yukon failed first?
Are you saying the Spicer D44 shaft was "stock"?

I am curious about the description of "what was inferior".

Jim

Jeeperz-Creeperz
February 24th, 2006, 01:15 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(95geo &#064; Feb 24 2006, 09&#58;26 AM) 10851</div>
quoted for humor....
i have 30 spline inners and 19 spline outers
[/b]
I&#39;m not sure I understand your humor. I probably did not explain very well and I tire quickly of arguing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(95geo &#064; Feb 24 2006, 09&#58;26 AM) 10851</div>

the only thing i can say is that the test piece was most likely flawed and lead to a false conclusion but then it would point out their quality control issues, but like i said if you have a problem they will take care of it

if you want when the search is back up on pirate ill get you the thread where alloy usa is being criticized for not selling usa parts
[/b]
It was not destructive test. If they warranty their stuff, that&#39;s great&#33; I&#39;m sure they have a market for their product, I simply recommended another. I do not need the thread, thanks for the offer. I already know they don&#39;t sell US parts but I&#39;m not sure why their being criticized - neither does Randy&#39;s, Dutchman, Motive, Superior... Maybe it&#39;s their choice of name?

Jeeperz-Creeperz
February 24th, 2006, 01:37 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(WhiteRhino &#064; Feb 24 2006, 09&#58;58 AM) 10853</div>

Kevin,
I also do not want to debate the differences. Especially since I do not know how the conclusions were derived.
I am merely pointing out that there are a ton of different things to be looked at.

What was the summary of the analysis? I am curious what was done.

Was Yukon found to not be supplying the material they advertised? Were both axles supposed to be from the same material and found to be different?
Was a destructive test done under controlled circumstances & the Yukon failed first?
Are you saying the Spicer D44 shaft was "stock"?

I am curious about the description of "what was inferior".

Jim
[/b]
The way I remember it is that the metal makeup of the Yukon shaft was of lower quality than a stock Spicer shaft. (3-82-871 part number). Both shafts were D44.

joe_jeep
March 4th, 2006, 01:14 AM
i was just looking at dynatrac&#39;s website. they offer dynatrac "competition" shafts, u wanna see expensive. damn&#33;&#33;
they better fly out and replace em on the trail for their prices. i could have a set of spares, and a mechanic on hand to swap em for their prices. things must be made of gold of something. on second thought gold is too soft. lol