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Trail_Fanatic
December 6th, 2010, 08:04 PM
The Michigan DNRE has elected to form an ORV Education Advisory Committee. The Committee will begin to meet in 2011 and will advise the Department on the administration and improvement of the ORV Safety Education Program.

2011 will also mark the first year in Michigan's history that 4x4 and extraction information will be a part of the Education Program.

I am proud to announce that GLFWDA has been able to secure a position on this Advisory Committee!

Congratulations GLFWDA!!

:thumb:

Jarhead
December 6th, 2010, 08:16 PM
:woot::woot::yourock:

Rocky
December 6th, 2010, 08:39 PM
Congradulations on GL securing a spot on this workshop.Its a pleasure seeing that full size gets some recogniziton too.

How does one find out about all the folks who were appointed to this workshop?

Trail_Fanatic
December 6th, 2010, 08:48 PM
I received a phone call from DNRE today telling me that we're "in" and that an information package has been sent out USPS. If the information lists the other members, I'll post them up here. Otherwise, the Committee is so new, I doubt anything is on the DNRE site yet. I'll do my best to keep you informed.

Rocky
December 7th, 2010, 11:14 AM
Thank You.

Rocky
December 7th, 2010, 11:36 AM
Pat,
By the way, who's the lucky person/persons from GL to be appointed to this ORV Safety Education Workshop?

Rocky
January 3rd, 2011, 08:50 PM
Anything on a start date for this workshop?

What was the selection process used to appoint those to this workshop, DNR selction I suppose?

Trail_Fanatic
January 7th, 2011, 07:39 AM
Sorry Rocky. I somehow missed this the last time I logged in.


Pat,
By the way, who's the lucky person/persons from GL to be appointed to this ORV Safety Education Workshop?

Me. Jarhead will be the alternate to represent 4x4s.


Anything on a start date for this workshop?

What was the selection process used to appoint those to this workshop, DNR selection I suppose?

They will start later this month and, yes . . . Standard DNRE selection process.

Rocky
January 19th, 2011, 03:39 AM
Pat,
you mentioned that you and Bob were selected to secure a spot on this advisory education board.

Until this Advisory workshop,were you or Bob ever licensed thru the DNR ORV safety program as licensed ORV safety Instructors before?

In the past,did you or Bob actually instruct these types of safety classes [ full size extraction ] under the DNRs Administration and hand out safety certificates?

Or did the DNR pick you two based on your many years of experience regarding full size ORVs & your level of experience extracting these types of vehicles? [ I understand both of you are very experienced full size ORVers ]

I completely accept the need to understand proper full size extraction, however, I do not beleive that its the DNRs position to allow youth under the age of 16 to operate full size ORVs and the ORV safety program is suppose to be structured to certify youth under the age of 16, not adults. Therefore, why do we need to add full size extraction to the ORV safety program for a group of kids under the age of 16 who should'nt be operating full size ORVs in the first place?

Perhaps it is your position that it is OK to allow youth under the age of 16 to operate full size ORVs as long as they are certified under the DNRs safety education program?

Trail_Fanatic
January 19th, 2011, 02:32 PM
My answers are included in the quote of your post, but written in RED to distinguish them from your post.


Pat,
you mentioned that you and Bob were selected to secure a spot on this advisory education board.

Until this Advisory workshop,were you or Bob ever licensed thru the DNR ORV safety program as licensed ORV safety Instructors before?
In the past,did you or Bob actually instruct these types of safety classes [ full size extraction ] under the DNRs Administration and hand out safety certificates?

Not under the DNR program but rather under the United Four Wheel Drive Associations' program. There has never been any reason for 4x4 enthusiasts to become State Certified as the program hasn't included any 4x4 information. We are both United certified Master Trainers of their program.


Or did the DNR pick you two based on your many years of experience regarding full size ORVs & your level of experience extracting these types of vehicles? [ I understand both of you are very experienced full size ORVers ]

We were selected based upon our UFWDA certification and involvement with the ORV Program as a whole.

I completely accept the need to understand proper full size extraction, however, I do not believe that its the DNRs position to allow youth under the age of 16 to operate full size ORVs and the ORV safety program is suppose to be structured to certify youth under the age of 16, not adults. Therefore, why do we need to add full size extraction to the ORV safety program for a group of kids under the age of 16 who shouldn't be operating full size ORVs in the first place?

Perhaps it is your position that it is OK to allow youth under the age of 16 to operate full size ORVs as long as they are certified under the DNRs safety education program?

I agree that those under 16 shouldn't be operating a full sized 4x4 (at least without having been through driver's training yet), but there is no law forbidding it. there is only an administrative rule preventing this from happening at Silver Lake SP.

It is now the Department's position to include all forms of ORV in the certification program. I believe (but could be mistaken) that the thought process is that those youths who enjoy the motorized outdoor sports are more likely to eventually obtain a 4x4 once they are old enough. It is in the interest of future safety that they will be exposed to proper driving and more importantly, extraction techniques. Improper extractions kill several enthusiasts every decade. I believe the Department is also concerned about the increased use and popularity of RUVs. RUVs have more in common with 4x4s than OHMs or ATVs when it comes to driving and extraction. While it is true that the youths will probably not use the information before they are 16, having the information disseminated will improve safety in the future.

Renegade II
January 19th, 2011, 02:57 PM
FYI to everyone; At 14 years 9 months of age a person can obtain a driving permit in Michigan. The driver that recently killed my uncle was a 14 year old 'legal' driver out driving around with her mother. Any class or training that improves skill, judgement and experience of that age group just may save a life somewhere down the road.

Trail_Fanatic
January 19th, 2011, 03:33 PM
Thank you for the FYI and I'm very sorry to hear about your loss!

Rocky
January 19th, 2011, 03:37 PM
Pat,
all administrative rules that governed the ORV program and instructor certification was rescinded by the DNR in 2005.Even today, the ORV program is ran with no administrative rules in existance. I dont think this is legal to run the program like this and its something that is getting looked into.

The DNR can put ''departmental policies'' in place, but without Administrative Rules in place to govern the ORV safety program, I dont think ''departmental policies'' hold much weight. [ I could be wrong ]

Let me give you an example of what im talking about.

Lets say that its the DNRs ''departmental policy'' to have every ORV instructor read versus from the bible,OR give urine samples at the very beginning of every safety class. Without going thru the legislative process that governs Administrative Rules for the program content and actually having the ''bible reading'' or ''urine sample'' mandated for each instructor thru the Administrative Rules process for the program, the DNR can make WHATEVER it is, their ''departmental policy''.

I dont think SL has an administrative rule that prohibutes youth operation of full size ORVs but rather a LUOD or LAND USE ORDER OF DIRECTOR that prevents this?

I like the idea of what you and Bob are doing with regard to the full size group and safety classes. I would love to be a participant in one of your upcoming classes.How and when can I become involved?

Rocky

Trail_Fanatic
January 19th, 2011, 03:57 PM
I'm probably wrong on the term, but was told that something is in place at SLSP to prevent it. I can't remember exactly who told me though. Pete Lundborg maybe?

Trail_Fanatic
January 19th, 2011, 04:00 PM
The Instructor Academy is still being set up.
When it becomes fully operational I can post it up for you.
There are others interested as well.

Rocky
January 19th, 2011, 07:28 PM
When will you be doing your next full size ORV safety education class? I would love to participate in it if it fits my schedule.

Rocky

Rocky
January 19th, 2011, 07:41 PM
I'm probably wrong on the term, but was told that something is in place at SLSP to prevent it. I can't remember exactly who told me though. Pete Lundborg maybe?

The Director of the DNR has the authority to issue a LUOD [ Land Use Order of the Director ] if he/she feels that the current law may/will cause risks to others or to land.

One example of this is SL.

Under Michigan law, a youth may operate an ORV at any age on Michigan designated trails and Scramble area's as long as they are ORV certified and under the direct visual supervision of an adult. However, it was Pete Lundborgs opinion that allowing youth under the age of 12 to operate ORVs within SL, may cause un-necessary risks and dangerous situations. He therefore seeked to get the Director of the DNR to issue a LUOD for SL that prohibutes any youth operation of any ORV while under the age of 12 years old.

Trail_Fanatic
January 19th, 2011, 11:04 PM
The only one scheduled right now is for the new hires at SLSP. It's for staff only and not a public offering. I don't know when the next public session is scheduled.

Rocky
February 19th, 2011, 01:22 PM
Pat,
anything new going on as far as Instructor Training Academy ect?

Trail_Fanatic
February 19th, 2011, 05:02 PM
Just working out the Instructor's Course Outline.

Rocky
February 19th, 2011, 08:41 PM
Just working out the Instructor's Course Outline.

Are you suggesting that the DNR is going to allow potential ORV safety Instructors the opportunity to receive their instructor training on-line?

What happened to Instructors Academy?

Trail_Fanatic
February 20th, 2011, 12:45 AM
Outline, not online - the curriculum outline for the Academy.

Rocky
February 20th, 2011, 10:47 AM
Thanks for clearing that up. Had me real nervous for a minute.

Trail_Fanatic
February 20th, 2011, 11:43 AM
:thumb:

Rocky
March 25th, 2011, 03:27 AM
Pat,
whats your opinion of the new 2011 ORV ''Instructors Policy & Procedures Manual''?

Trail_Fanatic
March 30th, 2011, 09:49 PM
I think it's a lot better than what was in place, but there's always room for improvement.
I was VERY disappointed to hear that retraining of the current instructor pool was dropped from the requirements and I will continue to try to get it back in.

Rocky
March 31st, 2011, 09:06 PM
Yep, it also blew my mind when I found out that the DNR was only going to train ''new Instructors'' for the program.Their past record for certifying instructors is a total joke and I completely agree with you, these guys/gals should not go foward without being trained correctly. If the DNR really cared about the program the way they want us to ''think'' they do in their new 2011 Policy & Procedures Manual, than they will do the right thing and retrain these folks---but dont expect it.

I personally know of past instructors who will not instruct anymore because of the vast amount of unreasonable changes in the new 2011 Policy and Procedures manual.I thought the ''idea'' was to get more instructors aboard, not loose them.

It's also a safe bet, the way the new PP manual is structured, we will also be training LESS youth in a years time. Mandating that EVERY class have a minimum of 2 instructors present, from 1 to 24 students, is just plain redicules and poorly thought out. I don't cancel any of my safety classes because I don't have enough students in them.

Sometimes early in the riding season, I might only be able to get 2-5 kids scheduled into a safety class on a given date.A class of this nature does not take someone with my vast amount of ORV knowledge, 6 hours to perform.I can teach more ''useful information '' in 3.5 hours than most volunteer instructors can teach in 6 hours. There is absolutley no reason why I should have to cancel my class because I cant find another instructor to assist me or because of ''class time'' policies. So now I'll be forced to call the parents at the last minute and inform them that because of redicules new DNR policies for 2011, I have to cancel their kids safety class.This is going to piss off a lot of parents. I hope the new DNR ORV Coordinator is ready to handle the mass amount of POed parents that are not going to like this.

How the DNR can run the program directly into the dirt for the last 7 years,and now, come in with all these strict changes for 2011 and NOT re-train the old instructors--------is----------well?----------the DNR for yah

Pat,
Im not at liberty to say too much at this time, but I sure hope you guys are not wasting your time with this stuff.

Trail_Fanatic
April 1st, 2011, 11:13 AM
I hope not too.
Ideally, I would think the classes should really be split into 2 categories; one class for those under 50" and one for those over 50". The differences in machine design, capabilities, handling, and weight are significant enough to warrant it, IMHO. I Jeeper isn't going to get much out of the dirt bike/quad portion of the class, just as a dirt biker isn't going to get much out of the 4x4 section. But, as least they will have been exposed to the information and that's certainly better than not.

Rocky
April 2nd, 2011, 08:40 AM
What im about to say right now wont go over too good with some of you folks in here [ full size 4x4 ] and I know a few guys will disagree with me, and thats OK, thats why we have discussion forums like this.

Michigans ORV safety education program was put into place to ''certify and instruct'' youth under the age of 15 years old, for the safe & responsible use of ATVs and ORVs. It should be every instructors responsibility to make sure that every parent/student understands that sizing any youth/person on a ATV/ORV that is in inappropriate for their size, weight, strength, motor skills, or level of experience is both dangerous and not advised. In my safety classes, I am very prudent when it comes to proper size/fit. We have way too many parents that think its OK to put little Joey who is 9 years old and weighs 75 lbs, on their 800lb----500cc Polaris ATV.This type of thinking creates risks and mishaps.

With that said, it is my opinion that by having 10 pages in the new 2011 student ORV Safety Manual that supports full size UTV-ORV use, actually ''encourages'' our youth to operate something that is too big for them, especially when you factor in that most kids 15 and under, dont even have a drivers license yet.I don't believe this full size information has any place in a 15/under student safety manual designed to certify kids on safe/responsible use of ATV/ORVs.It sends the wrong message.

I understand your compassion for full size ORV-UTV use and I support it 100%, I just think its a complete waste of resources to put 10 pages of information regarding full size use of ORVs & UTVs in a manual that is suppose to be designed for youth under the age of 16 years old.

Im not an advocate of teaching kids under the age of 16 to operate any ATV/ORV that they are not mature/big enough to operate.Putting this full size information in the student manual when most kids don'y even have a drivers license yet, encourages this type of activity IMO.

OK, fling away!

phittie1100
April 2nd, 2011, 12:39 PM
Under the current system though, the only required training in the ORV program is for young people. That means we only have one shot to teach users the safety and legal aspects of ORV operation in Michigan unless they voluntarily seek that training through UFWDA or a similar 4x4 safety education class. With the growing popularity of UTVs - whether you or I disagree with the principle or not - young people have a lot more contact with those types of machines than ever before, so I think adding that to the curriculum is important. And although there are more restrictions on 16-17 year old kids operating a vehicle on the road than there were when we were kids, unless they have had some training through a youth ORV safety class there is no requirement for any type of safety training before kids can potentially head into the woods in a full-size truck or SUV. Adding it to the program at least introduces a small percentage of the future adults of the world to the general aspects of safe operation and recovery of 4,000 pound vehicles.

Renegade II
April 4th, 2011, 09:20 AM
The 14 year, 9 month to 15 year old 'permit' drivers are all over the place. Their numbers are growing like crazy all over the roads. I literally deal with them in multiple numbers every day and can confirm that 99.9% of their parents just set next to them and do 'taxi time' until they can hand off the keys for good. This age groups skills don't seem to improve much by the time they hit 16 and go solo. IIRC a youngster in this age group was involved in a crash at Silver Lake Dunes a few years back and his mother died as a rusult. I believe it was a rental or newly purchased vehicle. Maybe an educational safety program may have prevented the loss of life.

Newbies in our sport pop up from this age group and drag mom or dad out to the dunes or trail all the time in the new family SUV. And very often the parents have no clue either, so you end up with the blind leading the blind. Just set at Appletree & Duneland and watch how many of the clueless folks are dragged out to the dunes by their kids and are buying mounts and flags for the new SUV that neither one of them really know how to operate off road.


Im not an advocate of teaching kids under the age of 16 to operate any ATV/ORV that they are not mature/big enough to operate.Putting this full size information in the student manual when most kids don'y even have a drivers license yet, encourages this type of activity IMO.

First of all, if they don't have a license why would they be operating an automobile anyway? Second; These kids are already out there in large numbers, with their unwitting parents, offroading without any safety education. And from 20+ years of working in our law / courts systems I can 100% assure you that the principle of 'if you don't educate them on how to get out of trouble they won't get into it' doesn't work.

Trail_Fanatic
April 4th, 2011, 10:03 AM
Michigan Statute includes 4x4s and RUVs in the definition of Off Road Vehicle. I think the Department would be remiss in its duties if it did not include the safe operation of those forms of off road vehicle in its curriculum.

The Program does not simply teach safety habits to be used until a person reaches the age when they are no longer required to have a valid Safety Certificate by law; it teaches habits and principals that we hope will last a lifetime. Like Renegade said, youth at 14 and 15 years of age are very close to obtaining their driverís licenses. Fifteen year olds will be taking driverís training courses and getting their Operatorís Permits; some will soon have four wheel drive vehicles. It is anticipated that exposing students to this information will, over time, result in a reduction of 4x4 and RUV related offenses and most importantly, extraction related injuries and deaths. It is also anticipated that this information will now make its way into the ORV Handbook, exposing this material to even more enthusiasts, most of those over 16 years of age.

Renegade II
April 4th, 2011, 10:17 AM
Just some info on how early a kid can get a permit / license in Michigan ---> http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Michigans_Graduated_Licensing_System_153498_7.pdf

Rocky
April 4th, 2011, 12:45 PM
First of all, if they don't have a license why would they be operating an automobile anyway? Second; These kids are already out there in large numbers, with their unwitting parents, offroading without any safety education.

The way Michigan ORV laws are structured, a youth can legally operate a full size 4x4,on designated ORV Routes with adult visual supervision and a safety certificate,they dont need a drivers license. As already mentioned, I dont support this. If they are already out there offroading without their parents knowledge and no safety certification, maybe its time mom/dad start to get to know their kids.

Rocky
April 4th, 2011, 04:50 PM
Michigan Statute includes 4x4s and RUVs in the definition of Off Road Vehicle. I think the Department would be remiss in its duties if it did not include the safe operation of those forms of off road vehicle in its curriculum.


Michigan ORV statue only classifies ATV or ORVs. By using terminology not even in statue yet like, OHM,OHV,UTV, im afraid may create confusement to new instructors and some students.A full size 4x4, UTV is an ORV under Michigan law and should be addressed as such in my opinion.

.

A

Trail_Fanatic
April 4th, 2011, 07:36 PM
Either would be fine imho.
An RUV is a "motor driven off-road recreation vehicle capable of cross-country travel
without benefit of a road or trail, on or immediately over land, snow, ice, marsh, swampland, or other natural
terrain." and since "ORV or vehicle includes, but is not limited to, a multitrack or multiwheel drive vehicle, an ATV, a
motorcycle or related 2-wheel, 3-wheel, or 4-wheel vehicle, an amphibious machine, a ground effect air
cushion vehicle, or other means of transportation deriving motive power from a source other than muscle or
wind.", I don't see any harm exposing students to terms that are pertinent.

Rocky
April 5th, 2011, 07:55 AM
Pat,
Page 49 of the student manual gives the same definition for a OHV that you just gave for a RUV.

Could you please give me the MCL for the definiton of the RUV [ not ORV ] you mention above?

My point?, The vehicles you refer to are either ATVs or they are ORVs under State statue. No such thing as a OHV UTV OHM under State Statue.

In very simple terms, the definition of an ATV is,

ATV*
3-4 or 6 wheeled vehicle,designated for off-road use that has low pressure balloon type type tires,with a seat that is designed to be straddled by the operator, powered by an engine in size from 50cc on up to 1000cc*

Any other off road vehicle that does not fit the full definition of a ATV would be classified as a ORV regardless of what the dealership calls them when they are selling them [ OHV RUV UTV Jeeps Full size PU ect ]

I understand the compassion to use terminology like RUV UTV OHM OHV ect and I suppose it would be OK to use those words while teaching, however, I also believe that as instructors, we have the responsibility to make sure our kids and parents understand that these types of vehicles are either ATV or ORVs under Michigan Statue.

Thats All:thumb:

Trail_Fanatic
April 6th, 2011, 02:10 PM
Point well taken.
My personal viewpoint is that the Program should teach both statutory and common practice terminology and agree that the distinction should be emphasized.
Makes me wonder if a glossary might be in order?