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kb8ymf
July 12th, 2010, 11:17 AM
It's time again to discuss. :ahhh:
Recently there have been a few different variations pop up on how to attach two straps together. Some I like, some I do not. A few are acceptable. Which one(s) do you use and why. I've included my comments here also on each of them but do your own evaluation first and see it you agree or disagree with me. Be sure to recognize Ford truck closed loop style tow points and how you would attach to them.


Method 1 = Don't like but could be used. Could cinch down on stick causing difficulty undoing straps.
Method 2 = Don't like, Stick is in ultimate shear. Stick can slip off also as nothing holding it.
Method 3 = Use all the time. Easiest to undo, simple to demonstrate. Works on closed loop hooks like on Ford trucks
Method 4 = Hardest to implement. Most likely original variation
Method 5 = Don't like. Takes long time to undo as strap cinches down on strap.

Preferentional order 3,4,1,5,2 With 2 never being used.j-kb8ymf

Jarhead
July 12th, 2010, 12:23 PM
While I admit to having used the second version for an easy tug...I personally prefer the third version.

WhiteRhino
July 12th, 2010, 12:59 PM
Method #1: Functional but a nusiance to do threading one strap back through itself.
Method #2: NO! The worst design as it puts the stick in full shear taking all the load of the pull.
Method #3: The simplest and I consider the most common way to do it. With this design, it can quickly hook a strap to any other strap of full loop tow hook.
Method #4: Probably the best if you are planning on jerking to the point of breaking something. This method does not rely on the stick for anything other than assistance to separate 2 straps. Again, it's cumbersome to do, especially if the straps are muddy.
Method #5: Similar to Method #4 but not as good. The straps are still allowed to bind on each other making disassembly hard.

All in all, I feel Method #3 is the very best, simplest to learn and simplest to utilize in any situation. From previous discussions, there are those that think the stick sees high loads. It doesn't. I have used this method regularly doing some pretty hefty jerks with zero failures.

There is another version of Method #3 that I use more commonly when attaching 2 straps together. (doesn't work with a hook) Just loop one strap over the other and then do the same thing through the other strap end.

DieselMTU
July 12th, 2010, 03:41 PM
I would volunteer to do this if I know how....

But could some one demonstrate (know vehicle pulling required) how to loop the straps and sticks together at the Next Quarterly?

WhiteRhino
July 12th, 2010, 04:22 PM
when/where is the next quarterly?

rentalrider
July 12th, 2010, 05:05 PM
I use 1 and 3 personally. But I was taught by the best! :woot:

phittie1100
July 12th, 2010, 05:13 PM
when/where is the next quarterly?

Dam Site Inn in Pelston, Oct 10

Still working on the details (ie discounted room rate) for a block of rooms at The Lodge (frmly Holiday Inn Express) in Pelston, stay tuned for further details!

phittie1100
July 12th, 2010, 05:18 PM
I have used #3 since a demonstration at a quarterly meeting some time ago. Like Jim I have also heard warnings about the physics of the load on the stick, but I have watched pairs of BDMTs use their newly acquired sticks at the Mounds with big HP and 1/4 mile running starts with no failures - hitting it a lot harder than I ever would.

Trail_Fanatic
July 12th, 2010, 10:33 PM
I went out to the 3' diameter elm tree and tied off to it tonight.
I tested 3 of the methods but then had some friends from Kentucky stop in unexpectedly so I was unable to finish my testing. I'll get back on it tomorrow and post my results.

Greenway
July 13th, 2010, 04:53 AM
Well, Pat, I bet that got the neighbors talking...

WhiteRhino
July 13th, 2010, 07:21 AM
I went out to the 3' diameter elm tree and tied off to it tonight.
I tested 3 of the methods but then had some friends from Kentucky stop in unexpectedly so I was unable to finish my testing. I'll get back on it tomorrow and post my results.

I'm curious what that will tell you other than getting a feel for how easy/hard each method is to implement. Unless you jerk the snot out of them, you won't get a feel for how hard/easy they come apart.

But, I'm interested in your results.

kb8ymf
July 13th, 2010, 11:16 AM
I'm curious what that will tell you other than getting a feel for how easy/hard each method is to implement. Unless you jerk the snot out of them, you won't get a feel for how hard/easy they come apart.

But, I'm interested in your results.

X2
j-kb8ymf

Trail_Fanatic
July 13th, 2010, 11:27 AM
Ok, the neighbors no longer think I'm a nut, they are sure of it! :crazy:

And the wife is pretty happy with the new holes in the side lawn. Not that it was great before . . . (her-> :slap: <- me)

BUT I LEARNED A LOT! :woot:


I didn't jerk the heck out of them, but I did give each method 3 successively harder pulls to cinch them down on each other pretty darn good. Hard enough to make the Jeep jump around if I was off a straight line. The 2nd pull being what I would give another vehicle to get it out and the 3rd was what I would give a really badly stuck vehicle. Knowing that the tree wasn't going to move, I let off the gas rather than continue to pull, so each was simply a quick tug.

I used different sized sticks to help show failure probability. I started with a "dead and down" piece of maple about 1 1/4" thick that was sun dried. Much to my surprise, NONE of the pulls resulted in a failure of the stick. There was some very slight denting after 12 pulls of the first set though. I say 12 pulls because I used a slightly smaller stick (1") for the 3 pulls on Method #1. I was trying extra hard to get it to fail because that's the one I use.

After the 1" - 1 1/4" sticks didn't fail, I dropped down to a 5/8" diameter stick, also dead, down and sun dried (not water rotted from laying in direct contact with the ground).

Here's the results of that series:

Method 1: PITA to put together, Broke the stick trying to remove it, but the space created by removal of the stick made for easy separation.

Method 2: FAILURE, stick broke on 1st tug - a slow and easy tightening type tug of the connection, I can NOT recommend this method

Method 3: FAILURE, stick broke on 1st tug - a slow and easy tightening type tug of the connection, I can NOT recommend this method

Method 4: PITA to put together, easy to pull apart

Method 5: PITA to put together, easy to pull apart, BUT caused significant denting of the stick. I can see where this could become problematic for removal if forces were ramped up.

My conclusions:

You will NEVER see me use methods 2 or 3 unless it's a very easy tug AND I have a STRONG stick on hand. I can NOT bring myself to condone a method that allows for separation of the straps under load. This wouldn't be a problem under 'normal' circumstances, but when things are less than ideal and there are idiots standing around (or worse, trying to "help") these methods could result in unexpected consequences.

Method #1 was harder to take apart than methods 4 or 5, so (IMHO) it's out. (This was the one I've been using for 20 years)

Method 5 caused damage to the stick much more easily than method 4, so I would consider method 4 to be the safest and easiest to get back apart. Even though it's a pita to put together, I consider it the winner and, from now on, I'll be switching how I do things on the trail.

WINNER - Method 4

I have pictures, but their file size is too big for attachment.

WhiteRhino
July 13th, 2010, 11:52 AM
Pat,
Interesting test. Ironically, you will never see me use any method except #3. If you have to pull hard enough to break a stick of proper size, you are pulling too hard and it's time to pull cable.

I respect your tests but I believe that you are not conclusive on the pulls as you can never duplicate the exact same pull time after time with a vehicle and throttle.

As much as I wheel hard, most people are surprised at how light I am while using a strap. I respect them too much.

kb8ymf
July 13th, 2010, 12:33 PM
So Method 4 will be the only one shown and recommended in the DNR guide? I'm OK with that. If not, I have a HUGE issue.

And like Jim, I will never use any other method other than Method 3.
For the same reason I use an appropriately sized snatch strap I also use an appropriately sized stick.
I would also like to know how you attach a strap to a Ford pickup with a closed loop hook. If you put a screw clevise there I'm going to object.

P.S. You should have picked a smaller tree or smaller strap. That way, the strap would have broke or tree would have gotten pulled out of the ground and everone would be a winner! :woot:

P.S.S. I hope Nylon (20% stretch) snatch straps and Polyester (<5% stretch) tree trunk protectors were covered.

Also, was synthetic winch line included in the information?

Thanks for all your work on this.:yourock:


j-kb8ymf

Trail_Fanatic
July 13th, 2010, 12:33 PM
Pat,
Interesting test. Ironically, you will never see me use any method except #3. If you have to pull hard enough to break a stick of proper size, you are pulling too hard and it's time to pull cable.

I respect your tests but I believe that you are not conclusive on the pulls as you can never duplicate the exact same pull time after time with a vehicle and throttle.

As much as I wheel hard, most people are surprised at how light I am while using a strap. I respect them too much.

I agree with both your views on conclusiveness and RESPECT for the forces involved using a strap!

I'm a firm believer that "Every extraction involves deadly force".
Let disbelievers wrap the strap or cable around their waist before the pull!
That should put an end to that disagreement REALLY quickly! :lmao:

I also want to make a special point that while I agree with you about using a "stick of proper size", we can NOT be sure everyone is going to use a stick of proper size every time they hook 2 strap together, and not everyone will have the option of pulling cable. Too small of a stick allows for sudden separation. That's a liability I don't want GLFWDA/UFWDA/DNRE to hold because they promoted use of the method.

When it comes to protection from liability, I'm willing to promote a slightly less user-friendly, but safer, method if it affords more protection from failure and/or idiocy.

Trail_Fanatic
July 13th, 2010, 12:39 PM
So Method 4 will be the only one shown and recommended in the DNR guide? I'm OK with that. If not, I have a HUGE issue.

And like Jim, I will never use any other method other than Method 3.
For the same reason I use an appropriately sized snatch strap I also use an appropriately sized stick.
I would also like to know how you attach a strap to a Ford pickup with a closed loop hook. If you put a screw clevis there I'm going to object.

P.S. You should have picked a smaller tree or smaller strap. That way, the strap would have broke or tree would have gotten pulled out of the ground and everyone would be a winner! :woot:

P.S.S. I hope Nylon (20% stretch) snatch straps and Polyester (<5% stretch) tree trunk protectors were covered.

Also, was synthetic winch line included in the information?

Thanks for all your work on this.:yourock:


j-kb8ymf

We can DEFINITELY pick the method we wish shown.
Mind if I submit your picture of method 4? You have a pretty stick, lol.

Strap materials ARE covered but the intricacies of synthetic rope are left for people to "Consult your owners manual".
A little disappointing, but I thought it acceptable with our desire to limit space.

My experiment was designed to test the stick, not the straps or trees.

WhiteRhino
July 13th, 2010, 01:21 PM
I agree with both your views on conclusiveness and RESPECT for the forces involved using a strap!

I'm a firm believer that "Every extraction involves deadly force".
Let disbelievers wrap the strap or cable around their waist before the pull!
That should put an end to that disagreement REALLY quickly! :lmao:

I also want to make a special point that while I agree with you about using a "stick of proper size", we can NOT be sure everyone is going to use a stick of proper size every time they hook 2 strap together, and not everyone will have the option of pulling cable. Too small of a stick allows for sudden separation. That's a liability I don't want GLFWDA/UFWDA/DNRE to hold because they promoted use of the method.

When it comes to protection from liability, I'm willing to promote a slightly less user-friendly, but safer, method if it affords more protection from failure and/or idiocy.

I'm OK with this as it takes it as close to idiot proofing as can be.

I realize you made a backyard attempt at a scientific experiment. My only real disagreement (not the right word so go with it) is your comment that Methods #4 & 5 were easy to separate. I would submit that the first time someone tries to extract a rig buried to the frame and they stretch the joint really tight, it won't be so easy.

Trail_Fanatic
July 13th, 2010, 01:35 PM
I'm OK with this as it takes it as close to idiot proofing as can be.

I realize you made a backyard attempt at a scientific experiment. My only real disagreement (not the right word so go with it) is your comment that Methods #4 & 5 were easy to separate. I would submit that the first time someone tries to extract a rig buried to the frame and they stretch the joint really tight, it won't be so easy.

I agree with you.
I only pull lightly and then let someone break out the cable.

I also should have mentioned that between the shearing forces involved in methods 2 and 3, method 3 places a MUCH reduced, indirect force on the stick, while method 2 places full, straight lined force on the stick. Method 3 would hold up to a LOT more abuse before snapping as compared to method 2.

kb8ymf
July 13th, 2010, 02:55 PM
We can DEFINITELY pick the method we wish shown.
Mind if I submit your picture of method 4? You have a pretty stick, lol.

Strap materials ARE covered but the intricacies of synthetic rope are left for people to "Consult your owners manual".
A little disappointing, but I thought it acceptable with our desire to limit space.

My experiment was designed to test the stick, not the straps or trees.

Submit away!
You actually need three pictures to show assembly. I'll do that tonight if you wish.
My question on the straps was to 'get the word out' to people who don't understand that there IS a difference between the two. Right now only 2 companies I think are promoting the differences. ARB is one and I forgot the other. They are also color coordinating the differences so you can tell in a heartbeat.
j-kb8ymf

Trail_Fanatic
July 13th, 2010, 04:47 PM
I remember that they covered the new color code at hte UFWDA AGM a couple of years ago, but don't remember it. Think we should track it down and have it included?

If you could take assembly pictures, that would be GREAT!
Thank you!

kb8ymf
July 13th, 2010, 05:04 PM
I remember that they covered the new color code at hte UFWDA AGM a couple of years ago, but don't remember it. Think we should track it down and have it included?

If you could take assembly pictures, that would be GREAT!
Thank you!

It looks like these two companies will standardize the color scheme but I suspect others will do their own color scheme. But the concensis was to differentiate between the two.

ARB and
Snatch= Orange (Nylon)
Tree Saver=Yellow (Polyester)
Winch Extension=Purple (Polyester)

Viking Offroad
http://offroadpress.com/2010/03/viking-offroad-introduces-the-tow-strap-and-tree-strap/

Trail_Fanatic
July 13th, 2010, 05:14 PM
That's different than what I was talking about.

There are also different colors of synthetic winch line. Each is color coded as to the material it's made from. I thought it was because some materials are more UV resistant than others.

phittie1100
July 13th, 2010, 06:33 PM
The results are interesting Pat - decreasing the stick size to something I don't think any of us would use IRL was a good thought when the bigger stick survived all of your attempts.

phittie1100
July 15th, 2010, 01:54 PM
Dam Site Inn in Pelston, Oct 10

Still working on the details (ie discounted room rate) for a block of rooms at The Lodge (frmly Holiday Inn Express) in Pelston, stay tuned for further details!

I'll get it in the event section too, but to reserve a room, please call the Pelston Lodge, 231-539-7000 and let them know you are part of the GLFWDA group - this will get you a $69.95/night rate for a $109.95 room.

Trail_Fanatic
July 15th, 2010, 02:03 PM
A comment was made on another forum that concerns me:

Interesting..... The method he describes as a "never use" is the method I was taught in my off-road driving course for the Red Cross. He is correct that it puts shearing forces on the piece of wood, but that is the point. As a block of wood crushes and breaks due to excessive shear energy, it absorbs and consumes much of the energy. By converting energy into the crushing and shearing of the block of wood, less energy remains in the strap, reducing its danger as a tethered missile.

The choice and design of the block of wood is also important. The block should be "turned" in the middle to create a groove to hold the loop. While you don't want to choose wood that is too soft, you also want to avoid wood that is too hard and likely to splinter when it breaks. The whole idea is to create a place where you can have a controlled break.

I've NEVER heard that shearing the block is "desirable", and that's what the Red Cross is teaching?

Discussion?

WhiteRhino
July 15th, 2010, 03:05 PM
Where did you see this Pat?
I don't like the idea of having a predesigned weak point. It's similar to those who like the fusable lockout hubs. All in all, your system ends up having a weak point. IMO... not good.

I still stand behind a safe condition, being aware of the situation and being willing to move to the next step (winch) as needed. And I will concede, if you don't have a winch and decide to jerk hard enough where damage could happen that method #4 should be considered.

I don't know anything about a red cross training.

Trail_Fanatic
July 15th, 2010, 04:06 PM
Our opinions of the situation are the same.

The comment came from a fire fighter.
I don't know if the training was related to his postion or not.
I didn't even know RC offered an off-road driving course.

WhiteRhino
July 15th, 2010, 04:49 PM
Interesting. My son in law is a firefighter and we've talked about the fact that they have never had any recovery training. A couple years back they had some stuck trucks and a couple guys hooked a 2" strap to a 3" strap. (I don't know the attachment method) The 2" strap broke and hit a policeman on the scene. He got hurt pretty bad.

Jarhead
July 16th, 2010, 09:31 AM
A comment was made on another forum that concerns me:

Interesting..... The method he describes as a "never use" is the method I was taught in my off-road driving course for the Red Cross. He is correct that it puts shearing forces on the piece of wood, but that is the point. As a block of wood crushes and breaks due to excessive shear energy, it absorbs and consumes much of the energy. By converting energy into the crushing and shearing of the block of wood, less energy remains in the strap, reducing its danger as a tethered missile.

The choice and design of the block of wood is also important. The block should be "turned" in the middle to create a groove to hold the loop. While you don't want to choose wood that is too soft, you also want to avoid wood that is too hard and likely to splinter when it breaks. The whole idea is to create a place where you can have a controlled break.

I've NEVER heard that shearing the block is "desirable", and that's what the Red Cross is teaching?

Discussion?

The only off-road training wherein the American Red Cross is involved in, that I am aware is HOPE (Hummer Owners Prepared for Emergencies). Unforetunately, the events described above are not from The HUMMER Club, Inc. handbook. Therein, an instructor opted to utilize his/her own misguided judgment when teaching the course...or, it has nothing to do with HOPE and I am mistaken.
Many of the Hummer owners that were once a part of the American Red Cross effort have opted to become trained under FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) for CERT (Community Emergency Response Team). The benefits are the training is conducted by a handful of trained and qualified instructors and once certified they are compensated for any Emergency Assistance they offer.

Trail_Fanatic
July 16th, 2010, 11:15 PM
Thanks Bob!